Discussion in 'General Advice' started by Aviari, Jun 27, 2015.

  1. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    Couple of family members have announced that Vaccines Are Bad Because Nebulous "Might Cause Health Problems Like Autism And That's Bad" and My Child Is Healthy And Doesn't Need Them.

    I am writing up a long, detailed debunk and could use help getting Real Science-backed sources as to why they are so, SO wrong.
    • Like x 2
  2. blue

    blue hightown funk you up


    #at them #not you
    • Like x 1
  3. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    My grandmother was healthy as a horse as a child. Then she got polio and first almost died, spent a year in the hospital, then spent several years confined to her room because she was so sick, then couldnt walk for years, and still has a hard time getting around and has dealt with serious chronic pain her whole life. Not to mention almost dying in child birth because she wasnt supposed to be able to concieve at all and then had massive complications when whoops.

    • Like x 3
  4. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    Here's her response to "Why wouldn't you vaccinate?"

    "It's not all about vaccinating, although I don't believe that most vaccinations are necessary and many are more harmful then helpful.. It's about the right to make your own decisions for you and your family. To decide whether you want them and when. Currently young children are given a cocktail of vaccinations at a time when their bodies are undergoing crucial development. It used to be they were spread out over time giving the body time to adjust but now its forced all at once putting their immune systems at risk. What this bill is doing is taking away a liberty to a fair and equal education. If the child is not vaccinated, whether its for medical reasons or personal beliefs, parents who choose not to follow the timeline set for vaccinations or who choose to forgo entirely will be forced to homeschooling whether they have the ability to provide it not."
  5. BPD anon

    BPD anon Here I sit, broken hearted

    I screamed insults at the last person I met who was anti-vax.
    • Like x 1
  6. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    See, im with her except that putting your child in danger of dying is one of those things that typically overrides parental right to choose because most people arent SELFISH ASSHOLES. Not to mention putting all the other kids in danger too--vaccines arent 100%, and some kids medically cant get them. What about THEIR right to safe education?

    But basically, no, some things you dont get to fucking decide whether your family gets. If you dont feed your kids when you are able to they get taken away and given to people who arent fucking abusive. If your kid is bleeding out, you dont damn well get to decide that medical care is against your family beliefs. Vaccinations are the same.

    Im not even addressing the fact claim about whether vaccines are useful or harmful because citation fucking needed basically.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
    • Like x 2
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    On the one hand, maybe an overreaction. On the other hand... I mean, I find it sorta hard to be critical of it.
    • Like x 6
  8. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    Ohhh I'm finding citations to counter. Google Scholar is WONDERFUL
    (I found a full book pdf this is awesome)
    (I am absolutely giddy)
    (Fuck but it feels good to flex my science muscles like this, it's been years)
    I'll post the whole doc here later, it's mostly a wall of links and citations because she only thinks in soundbites.
    • Like x 1
  9. WithAnH

    WithAnH Space nerd

    This is one of those things, unfortunately, where a well-researched post laying out the evidence is not likely to help. In fact, it may have the opposite effect. Attacking someone's beliefs head-on (even if they are totally unsupported beliefs) tends to make them a) dig in and b) stop listening to you. I realize that it would feel good to make the post, but if you want to change their minds, you may want to consider a different approach. I'm doing a thing this afternoon, but I know there are some guides out there and I can try to dig them up when I get home - a kind of Socratic method where you mostly ask questions and listen seems to work best.
  10. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    Why do people arrive at this belief? Seriously, it is not based on real life or facts. Most of these people aren't otherwise crazy. Des it feel good to get to decide your kids don't get basic medical care and should maybe get really fucking horrible life-altering diseases?
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
    • Like x 2
  11. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    I will freely admit that I want to do it partly because the smackdown will feel good, and I am aware it could make her dig in. This is why it's actually a tag-team effort. Another family member is going the guided questions thing. I'm gathering evidence for her and prepping a hammer.

    It's not going to be written as an attack. I'm taking her points of concern/etc and providing evidence to disprove them.

    Though to be fair I will proooobably mic drop with this:
    • Like x 4
  12. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    Paywalls are a pain in the ass. I do not want to pay $35 an article to do my damn THESIS let alone debunk someone on Facebook.
    • Like x 4
  13. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    Okay, first draft is done. Total of 23 peer-reviewed sources (some still behind paywalls but DAT ABSTRACT) Anyone interested in seeing?
    • Like x 2
  14. Elph

    Elph capuchin hacker fucker

    I am! Also especially curious about the logic behind the 'space them out' thing - I've heard some practical & medical arguments against it, but I don't fully grasp/recall them. Anyone able to weigh in?
  15. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    This one is a study (behind a paywall) on why people want to space them out. Fear is that combination vaccines/etc will overload the kid's natural immune system instead of strengthening it.

    This one, this one and this one debunk those fears and actually found that not only is it more time and cost efficient to combine vaccines, they also tend to work better together.

    Here is the whole rebuttal, as a Google Doc. I made a point of finding three refuting documents to each of her talking points, but there were many, many more.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
    • Like x 4
  16. Elph

    Elph capuchin hacker fucker

  17. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    This doc is beautiful :') I'm just gonna... *quietly saves to my own google docs for future reference*
    • Like x 2
  18. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    The "debate" goes on and has attracted third parties! One of whom just told me I don't get a say in raising a child in a safe/unsafe environment because I'm "not a mother...yet."
  19. liminal

    liminal I'm gonna make it through this year if it kills me

    my friend spaces out vaccines because her kid has some sort of allergy towards something in vaccines so she knows what vaccines causes anaphylactic shock and stuff in case he has a bad reaction. She still vaccinates her kids though. I think that's pretty reasonable.

    On the other hand a relative of mine still vaccinates her kids so they can go to school (I think vaccination records are mandatory in NY for most schools) but is 100% the chickenpox vaccine gave her kids the autisms and no proof will convince her otherwise. People have tried to educate her on the topic but it's futile.

    So by that logic if you saw a child being beaten or neglected you shouldn't call the cops/cps because it's not your place to judge and don't get a say in what is a safe/unsafe environment. :')
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
    • Like x 4
  20. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    *noises of futile incoherent shrieking rage*
    • Like x 2
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