Argument with friend/communication issues

Alright, so. Yesterday I had a big blowup argument with a friend over a couple things that have been simmering for a while- but the thing is, I’m not quite sure how it started? I don’t think I started out extremely confrontational, and I only started getting a little defensive when I felt like she was picking a fight, but then she told me I was picking a fight, and I really don’t know what even happened- I feel like it got away from my and I kinda don’t even know what was going on. I felt really condescended to but a mutual friend of ours told me that she was being mature. I want to know where I went wrong in the argument- like, if I really was reading too far into things. I definitely lost my temper, I’ll admit that, but I want to know if I was being oversensitive/responding to nothing, since I’ve been told that before, and how, in the future, I can avoid things like this/be better at communicating


Um, a few points for context (she knew both of these things before hand.)

1. my grandfather (on dads side) had a heart attack at the start of the weekend, and since my family is closest to the hospital they go to (a good 3 hours or so away from their home since they live in the foothills) the entire weekend my grandmother was staying here and there was a lot of family. I’m not really good with people I don’t expect or want to be in my space being in my space- it’s hard acting normal enough for them (I tend to do stuff like wave my hands, run back and forth across the house when I’m excited or thinking about something, and make weird vocalizations), its hard making small talk with people I have basically nothing in common with, its hard regulating my swearing and, in the specific and special case of my dads family, it’s hard to stop myself from screaming at them about what assholes they are to my dad 24/7. I was super tired and worn out, and I’d already told her as much.
   
   
2. I’m honestly not much of a gamer- like I mention, I spend more time reading lets plays or reading up on games than actually playing them for a variety of reasons. I especially don’t like first person games, since they tend to give me a headache and because I don’t like/get really freaked out by the chaotic nature of battle (as opposed to, say, Final Fantasy). I especially don’t like FPS’s because I have terrible aim and so that makes me even more scared of combat.
   
   
3. She has been trying to get me to play Fallout for a long time- she tried to get me to play New Vegas about 4 or 5 times, and here she was trying to get me to play normal Fallout. I tried New Vegas and didn’t much care for it, and hadn’t tried normal Fallout because college is kicking my ass and I don’t have enough freetime. (for reference b/c I think I mention it, she’s not taking classes) The last time we hung out, she made some comment about “moving past” anime or something like that and I mentioned that Fallout is not necessarily more mature (which I don’t think it is, but that’s less because guns and more because I feel like it’s a fairly cliche if enjoyable take on the whole post apocalyptic genre, which on the whole I could talk about for a while but won’t here). She got kinda offended by the comment, which I didn’t really understand why but idk

So, under the spoiler-thing I'm going to post the convo (with our names hopefully edited out). It's super long, I'm sorry, thanks to anyone who reads it ouo

Spoiler

-Lots of talking about Fallout-

[12:33:03 PM] Me: mk

[12:33:15 PM] Her: mh

[12:33:39 PM] Her: I had like a nother paragraph of stuff I was gonna say but if I said it you'd probably just get mad so uh

[12:33:41 PM] Her: nvm

[12:34:19 PM] Her: anyway if you're busy I'll leave ya be

[12:34:21 PM] Me: nah its fine

[12:34:32 PM] Me: im just not too talkative r

[12:34:47 PM] Her: yeah

[12:34:48 PM] Her: okay

[12:34:49 PM] Her: um

[12:34:51 PM] Her: ttyl

[12:35:04 PM] Me: nah it is fine

[12:35:04 PM] Me: tell me

[12:35:09 PM] Me: I'm reading all of it

[12:35:21 PM] Me: I just don't know how ro respond beyond d"mk" ad yeah and stuff

[12:35:28 PM] Me: but I think you'll want a response?

[12:35:35 PM] Me: but then I sound like a bitch when I do respond

[12:35:36 PM] Me: 0n0

[12:37:31 PM] Her: I'm just saying, yeah you hate Bethesda but I think there's more to a game than whether it has guns or how the perspective works and yeah, you can go on and say "There's nothing good about First Person Shooters, they are all stupid and mindless and boring" But you're never actually gonna know if you just say that and decide to hate all FPS games because they're FPS games. I'm not like, gonna tell you to play it anymore cause I mean that's prolly a lost cause regardless since, as you said, you don't like how FPS's play, but plotwise I think it's really cool. Maybe if you gave it a chance you might even like it. That's all

[12:37:49 PM] Her: I just feel like it's one of those games where if it was anything else you actually would have liked it

[12:38:03 PM] Her: that's all

[12:39:04 PM] Her: anyway

[12:39:14 PM] Her: I;m gonna shut up and probably like

[12:40:07 PM] Her: eat or sleep or something now that I've been an uncomfortable jerk

[12:40:29 PM] Her: sorry

[12:41:04 PM] Her: idk I'll ttyl if you wanna but I doubt you are in the mood to humor me rn

[12:41:24 PM] Her: which also came out sounding assholish but that's not how I meant it

[12:41:28 PM] Her: yeah

[12:41:29 PM] Her: sorry

[12:41:29 PM] Me: um

[12:41:30 PM] Her: bye

[12:41:36 PM] Me: I never said that all first person shooters are bad

[12:41:42 PM] Me: I said I don't like them

[12:41:57 PM] Me: I can personally not like something without thinking its objectively bad, you know

[12:42:00 PM] Me: it's all I do

[12:42:24 PM] Her: k

[12:43:34 PM] Me: I def never said they are all stupid and mindless and boring

[12:44:09 PM] Me: the worst thing I said about Fallout is that it's not intrinsically more mature then whatever anime game I am playing

[12:44:10 PM] Her: was not

[12:44:33 PM] Her: specifically referring to you

[12:44:40 PM] Her: it was a figurative you

[12:44:55 PM] Her: and as I expected you are taking this far more personally than you were meant to

[12:45:14 PM] Me: um because the way you worded it was really personal

[12:45:20 PM] Her: [my name]

[12:45:30 PM] Me: look whatever I am not in the mood to be told how silly I'm being

[12:45:38 PM] Her: okay

[12:45:39 PM] Her: fine

[12:45:46 PM] Her: I won't tell you you're being silly

[12:46:08 PM] Her: I won't tell you your thoughts on FPSs or whatever you don't like are wrong

[12:46:17 PM] Her: because they are your opinions

[12:46:18 PM] Me: wow you know how you don't like it when you think I'm being patronizing?

[12:46:24 PM] Her: and I am not looking to start a fight

[12:46:25 PM] Me: that's exactly how you're being to me rn :/

[12:46:30 PM] Her: which I am deperately

[12:46:31 PM] Her: trying

[12:46:36 PM] Her: to avoid right now

[12:46:38 PM] Her: and you are

[12:46:39 PM] Her: LITERALLY

[12:46:43 PM] Her: seeking it out

[12:46:44 PM] Her: so

[12:46:46 PM] Her: I am going to leave.

[12:47:00 PM] Me: "I'm just saying, yeah you hate Bethesda but I think there's more to a game than whether it has guns or how the perspective works and yeah, you can go on and say "There's nothing good about First Person Shooters, they are all stupid and mindless and boring" But you're never actually gonna know if you just say that and decide to hate all FPS games because they're FPS games. I'm not like, gonna tell you to play it anymore cause I mean that's prolly a lost cause regardless since, as you said, you don't like how FPS's play, but plotwise I think it's really cool. Maybe if you gave it a chance you might even like it. That's all"

[12:47:10 PM] Her: yeah okay

[12:47:13 PM] Me: tell me that this doesn't read as super personal and shit

[12:47:16 PM] Her: have fun yelling at no one

[12:47:21 PM] Me: like if I said this exact thing to you about final fantasy

[12:47:22 PM] Her: ttyl [my name]

[12:47:28 PM] Me: how would you feel

[12:47:53 PM] Her: If I respond to your question

[12:48:00 PM] Her: will that help this situation at all

[12:48:19 PM] Her: what exactly do you want out of this conversation[my name].

[12:48:38 PM] Her: Do you want to win?

[12:48:54 PM] Her: Have me submit and tell you I'm being a jerk

[12:49:18 PM] Me: no

[12:49:21 PM] Her: or that I'm a hypocrite?

[12:49:55 PM] Me: I don't want to have this conversation!

I am fine with you tell me what you think is cool about Bethesda games

I don't appreciate all the little barbs about "oh, you don't" and "well if you gave it a chance"

[12:50:00 PM] Me: I really don't fucking want that

[12:50:10 PM] Me: just tell me what is cool about the game, let me digest it, move on

[12:50:16 PM] Me: don't get all patronizing

[12:50:22 PM] Me: that's what I fucking want out of this conversation!

[12:51:01 PM] Her: Well okay [my name]. I won't try and get you to do anything anymore. God knows it's useless anyway

[12:51:13 PM] Her: ANd you know

[12:51:20 PM] Her: if you didn't want to have this conversation

[12:51:23 PM] Her: we could have just stopped

[12:51:25 PM] Me: Oh my god shut the fuck up

I have tried playing the games. I don't personally care for them

[12:51:27 PM] Her: when I SUGGESTed

[12:51:29 PM] Her: we stop

[12:51:48 PM] Her: That's cute, [my name]

[12:51:53 PM] Her: Yell at me and then sign off

[12:52:24 PM] Her: At least I've been trying to stay calm throughout this conversation

[12:52:25 PM] Her: but

[12:52:32 PM] Her: yeah, I get your point

[12:52:51 PM] Her: phrasing it like that left a lot of room for you to feel cornered or attacked

[12:53:06 PM] Her: However, counterpoint.

[12:53:11 PM] Her: I'm tired of this.

[12:53:23 PM] Her: I'm tired of having to tiptoe around every sentence

[12:53:48 PM] Her: to avoid saying something that you will inevitably take as a personal attack

[12:53:56 PM] Her: And for what

[12:54:07 PM] Her: would you do the same thing for me

[12:54:20 PM] Her: no, of course you would

[12:54:27 PM] Her: who am I kidding

[12:54:37 PM] Her: ugh

[12:54:48 PM] Her: i'm just

[12:54:57 PM] Her: tired of wanting to be able to do things with you

[12:55:07 PM] Her: and you're always coming up with excuses,

[12:55:09 PM] Her: real or not

[12:55:19 PM] Her: of why you can't or you don't want to, when

[12:55:23 PM] Her: frequently

[12:55:39 PM] Her: when it's the other way around I feel like I'm pretty receptive

[12:55:41 PM] Her: but that's okay

[12:55:46 PM] Her: if you don't want to

[12:55:49 PM] Her: that's just how you are

[12:56:11 PM] Her: and that's fine, it would be assholish of me to blame you for that.

[12:56:39 PM] Her: But I just

[12:57:00 PM] Her: I can't do this all the time.

[12:57:21 PM] Her: I'm thankful to you, for being there for me when I need you.

[12:57:44 PM] Her: And I care about you

[12:57:56 PM] Her: and I don't know what it is about this relationship that

[12:58:32 PM] Her: leaves me feeling so exhausted but whatever it is it's hard to keep going when I can't do much of anything anyway

[1:00:17 PM] Her: I think the truth is that I need to learn to care about what you think less than I do. And until then maybe I'm the one who needs to step back.

[1:00:45 PM] Me: I am sorry that fucking video games are more important to you then my feelings. I am sorry that appearently our relationship is contigent upon me liking these fucking video games

I'm tired too. I'm tired of you not doing tanything. I'm tired of you stubbornly refusing any hlp I offer, and then yelling at my for being distant. I'm tired of feeling obligated to you. I'm tired of you on your bad days acting like I'm the most put together person is the world that has perfect control and on your good days acting like im a fucking four year old that you need to talm down to

[1:01:18 PM] Her: ... Is that how you feel?

[1:01:47 PM] Her: Then I won't bother you about it anymore.

[1:01:50 PM] Me: yes, sometimes

There's a lot I like about you, but sometimes your so exhausting

[1:02:23 PM] Me: I am crying right now

[1:02:28 PM] Me: I'm not saying this to guilt trip you

[1:02:36 PM] Me: I am tlling you- you hurt me enough to make me cry

[1:02:46 PM] Me: I spent the whole weekend stressing out

[1:02:59 PM] Me: Being around my grandma and other family members

[1:03:10 PM] Me: I am drained. I am quiet. I am on the defensive

[1:03:34 PM] Me: And this is a conversation we're had many times before, and by now it is seriously getting under my skin

[1:03:38 PM] Me: I don't. Hate. Bethesda

[1:03:52 PM] Me: I personally don't like to play them, but I like to atch other people play them

[1:04:01 PM] Me: things like the vampire/werewolf thing was a joke

[1:04:10 PM] Me: things like complaints about the uglyiness are jokes

[1:04:15 PM] Me: I am fine with those games

[1:04:32 PM] Me: I don't actually play a lot of video games at all, in actuality

[1:04:37 PM] Me: it's not like they're special

[1:04:49 PM] Me: I don't really play FF either- mostly I read let's plays

[1:04:53 PM] Me: or readup on them

[1:05:18 PM] Me: I am really, really tired of you pushing this one thing on me, like I just haven't given it a chance

[1:05:25 PM] Me: I have given fallout a chance, and didn't much care for it

[1:05:34 PM] Me: I have given skyrim a chance, and didn't much care of it

[1:05:56 PM] Me: I like both when I can just be in the room with someone elseplaying and draw and occasionally comment, but I don't like playing them much myself

[1:05:58 PM] Me: there

[1:06:01 PM] Me: that is all

[1:07:29 PM] Her: okay.

[1:08:06 PM] Her: I need a while to think about this. I think based on the things you've told me, there are some decisions I need to make for both of our benefit.

[1:08:48 PM] Her: Either way, consider the Bethesda conversation over. I won't bring it up again.

[1:08:53 PM] Me: thank you

[1:09:08 PM] Her: Sure [My Name]

[1:09:11 PM] Her: Anytime

[2:08:53 PM] Her: I've made my decision. Thanks for your input. It has been enlightening. If you need me, though I doubt you will anytime soon, but if you do, you know where to find me.

So. Yeah. I can't figure out where I went wrong, or what exactly she means by the end, other then "I'm never talking to you again," and I've kinda been freaking out about it ever since. Any advice?

 

That's what I thought-like, I went through and replaced all the "you"s with "one"s and it really didn't make sense from that standpoint- but I tend to take things personally a lot- like, freak out that random people are talking about me, assume vagueblogging is about me even when its somebody who doesn't even know who I am, ect- so it's believable. It could happen, and other friend seemed to think that 's what was happening.

 

No, I'd say definitely she's put out that you won't play a game she thinks is cool, and she thinks it's for stupid reasons, that you're wrong, that you'd like it if you tried it, and that it's unreasonable for you to refuse.

BUT it feels to me like this is kinda a proxy fight for what's really wrong between you two? It's like she's seizing on this rather than something else that is what is really bothering her.

 

She's doing a lot of defensive anticipating, I think. Like, "I know what you're going to say, I've already thought about it, and here is my response to this thing that I already know you are going to say." Except that what she thinks you're going to say isn't actually what you're thinking, because she's strawmanned the arguments she thinks you're going to make to cushion her ego.

She doesn't want to have this fight, so she's built up what she thinks is an impenetrable defense to anything you could deploy against her. And it is "against;" she says, "What do you want from this conversation, to win?" She's seeing this as a fight, anticipating that you will too- but the fight won't have to happen, because she's set it up so that she's already won. Yay, conflict avoided, also I'm Right! Except that her model of anticipated-you is inaccurate, and when you show up on the field and start doing what you would do, instead of what anticipated-you already did, and they don't match, she has to scramble to put you back into the places she expected you to be. And then when the position becomes indefensible (direct statement- I Don't Actually Think That) she abandons it and retreats to something she didn't anticipate having to use (really flimsy secondary wall- Well It Was A General "You.")

... I'm a defensive arguer myself, I know some of the patterns. Not gonna say it's not satisfying as hell to watch an opponent crumble on the first rhetorical wall without having to activate any of the planned contingencies. Build your first wall right, you can just snipe the ones who get through from the battlements. (Of course, the fact that I use those tactics also means it's what I'm going to tend to see in other peoples behavior. I might just be protecting. Also, she's almost certainly not calculating like this.) (edit: Also, you shouldn't treat friends like this, unless you both like verbal sparring and are having fun.)

Non-ridiculous-metaphore version: She is remembering a time when you hurt each other, and bracing herself against anticipated conflict. Possible reason for the initial hurt: She seems to take your disinterest in/dislike for the games she likes as a slight against her taste and judgement. Like Game/Don't Like Game are conflated with Game Good/Game Bad; liking a Bad Thing means you're bad; therefore one of you must be wrong and bad, therefore she doesn't want to have this conversation. Therefore, not-so-impenetrable defensive wall.

 

The proxy-argument and the thing about the distaste in games makes sense, but it's kinda- we've had this argument before, and every time I try to make it explicit that I'm not making a value judgement on games, just a personal judgement, and it's never blown up like this? I don't really know why she got so mad about it- but then, the defensive argument thing makes a lot of sense there, I guess. But still, thank you very much- I can understand what happened a bit better, and that means a lot.
RE: Paranoia: I don't really think I've ever been abused/treated badly in such ways, so it could be a mental thing. Um, would you consider things like:
a) getting scared every time you hear a plane overhead because you think there are going to be bombs dropped on you
b) Getting scared whenever you see a strange shape in the sky because you think it's a nuclear bomb, despite knowing that no, that will never happen
c) Constantly being worried that everyone who seems to be your friend is part of an elaborate conspiracy to humiliate you/kill you
d) Being generally convinced that one wrong move will incite everyone else in the general vicinity to kill you
e) Just being scared of basically everything, up to and including heights, dogs, most people in the general vicinity, elevators, the car blowing up when we're getting gas, ect
as symptoms of paranoia? I guess it's something I've considered before, but I've always kinda dismissed it as me being over dramatic, and I don't really know much about what paranoia actually is, other then That Thing that dictators have. I haven't talked to a Mental Health Person because a) cost reasons and b) I don't even know where to start around contacting one and making an appointment and going there.

 

Our health coverage has been in a perpetual state of stategov induced limbo, and I have no idea what's going on with it. And, I mean, it's not like I don't get that it's not true- there's a def part of my brain going "come on, there is literally a zero percent chance that you are getting bombed in cali-freaking-fornia, calm the fuck down" there's just another part going "NOPE NO TIME FOR RATION HIT ALL THE PANIC BUTTONS."

 

For what it's worth, the bit at the end reads very passive-aggressive to me.

Flipping into formal speech patterns (capitalization and punctuation, fancy words) feels to me like distancing, like she's either being condescending, or trying to pull away from you in her own mind so she won't feel bad about your hurt feelings, because you're Clearly In The Wrong. (SJWs do similar distancing so they won't feel bad for the people they hurt - not that she's being a SJW, just the best analog I can think of right now.)

"some decisions we need to make for both of our benefit" / "I've made my decision. Thanks for your input." - Note how she's making her own decisions without asking about your feelings. She's parsing something designed to make her feel better as for your benefit. Seems like she's also implying that she may decide to stop being friends with you, and then she graciously leaves you hanging for a while to marinate in your feelings. And then she doesn't tell you what her decision was, which is even more marination. If this were about you being a jerk, I feel like she would have said something like "I need you to [change this behavior]'.

"consider it over, I won't bring it up again" - She has not admitted to any wrongdoing, just that bringing it up makes you upset. Implies that you're being irrationally upset, but she'll take the moral high ground by graciously sparing your feelings.

"if you need me, though I doubt you will anytime soon" - And here she's placing the burden of friendship on your shoulders, saying that if you want to interact anymore, you have to be the one that seeks her out, that puts out the emotional energy. And she'll either get to take the high ground again by graciously accepting you back, or push you away again.

This all being said, I think she really is hurt and overloaded, and that this discussion is a proxy for deeper conflicts. But I don't think she's handling it real well here.

(And yes, this is a familiar pattern to me. =_= I may be misreading due to personal experience, please correct if I'm overanalyzing.)

 

@albedo She tends to go into super formal a lot when she's mad, it honestly didn't even ping me as wierd. And I can definitely see where you're getting at with the proxy- but I don't even know what conflicts we were having, other then the perennial "Arxon is very critical of media and has a big mouth" but I never saw that as that bad- I understood it offended her sometimes and tried to back off and explain myself when I realized it did, but I just didn't see this coming.

 

Ok, I think I figured out why this whole thing pinged me so, so badly- it's a LOT like my last break up, which happened a couple years ago and I am still not entirely over because I'm a baby. The whole blowing up over something I thought was more minor, the ending definitely- it's really reminiscent of that whole incident (iirc, the not liking things was also a major sticking point for that girlfriend)
So, yeah, at least I realized why it's affecting me so badly. :/

 

Agreed with Seebs. Getting over things is hard. Still hurting isn't a sign of weakness.

Also about the "letting you stew" thing in the closing. That is pretty much a dick move.

 

Sorry about that, I'm pretty defensive about that whole thing.
As for the whole end thing....yeah. She's one of the members of our weekly gaming get together but she told other friend that she's not coming for a while, so that's not coming to a head. I...I don't know if I should try to talk to her, or let her come and talk to me, or what- like, what does she want out of this, am I supposed to be putting the effort forth or is she being serious, it's hard to tell with her.

 

That's such a classic passive-aggressive move!

It's like a dare with seven year olds--"I DARE you to read my paragraph of stuff! And if you don't, you're a *insert demeaning insult here*"

These moves can be hard to recognize in the heat of the moment.

 

Hmmm. So I'm getting a big disconnect of values or something here.

Like this sounds a lot like "I have emotional needs. And I want you to fill them." And she is getting frustrated and lashing out because you are not the thing she wants you to be. This is a sort of pattern I see in abuse things. The whole "you are not what I want you to be" followed with emotional guilt tripping, power plays, and shaming(which the others covered pretty well). I may also be reading into things, but as long as you do not give her power over you, I think it will be okay.

Also, I can't tell from this conversation, but I am having a hard time definitively determining what she is actually trying to tell you. So she may be having issues with a communication problem between you two. Like, the whole thing reads like you two are speaking according to different social rules.