Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 22, 2017.
your userbase is also extremely frustrated, and i think it's not the Antichrist Cometh if either party voices their feelings or solutions, especially in a private, non-suggestion area.
Worth noting that all most participants in the forums want is for people to stop this bullshit. The arguments are much more painful than anything that caused them.
We have always had people with mental health problems who fuck up, and who admit that they fucked up. Who cooperate with efforts to keep their actions from hurting people. Who try to get better over time. And we have always said "hey, this behavior is a problem, let's work to mitigate it". The mitigation hasn't always gone well, and we're still trying to learn it, but every one of those users has admitted to having fucked up, and none of them have tried to get other people to help them do the thing.
On the other hand, this is where a user has persistently hurt many other users, has done so without any hint of remorse, has upheld doing so as an explicit moral standard to which other users should aspire, and actively tried to organize other users to participate in group ostracization with the intent of hurting people more than they could be hurt by just some individual users making individual choices.
One of these behaviors is abuse on the forum; it is hurtful behavior which happens to be taking place on the forum, and which the forum has tools to try to learn how to mitigate and control.
One of these behaviors is abuse of the forum, and is an active attack on the forum's ability to mitigate and contain harm.
BTW I'm pretty frustrated that someone apparently told Seebs this was going down like it was a big fight because it wasn't. Plenty of people disagree with Wiwaxia. Maybe some people agree. I didn't even realize any of this was happening until the forums got frozen. When Seebs is taking a GODDAMN VACATION people don't need to be framing things as BIG EXPLOSIONS and dragging Jesse into this too when Jesse is having a flareup. It's pretty disrespectful to both Seebs and Jesse.
i agree, except jesse brought this up, no one brought jesse into it. afaik, anyway
Like Wiwaxia can stand there and say 'we should freeze out these people!' as much as they like and I'm still going to be 'no'.
I never said anything about banning. But from my perspective the sequence of events has been something like this:
>Threats, harassment, stalking, misogynistic abuse, to the point of actually driving people out of the community
-->Site admin defends perpetrators because the behavior is symptomatic (?)
>Someone suggests the community take a stand against threats, harassment, etc
-->Site admin reconsiders no-ban policy
I'm worried about this! I'm also worried about the characterization of both of these things as "text crimes," as if they're both the same thing and also less than real.
Ahh. Yeah, I didn't add the "not necessarily" and "in my opinion" and "it seems to me" sorts of qualifiers. I'm not Jesse or Seebs or a mindreader and I don't know know... but I'm confident enough of my opinion that I think I'm right, enough that I'm content not to tell others that they're wrong about their feelings. If people say stuff that makes sense that I hadn't already thought, I'll [like] it and maybe comment on it. If people say stuff that's utterly factually untrue, and I can think how to point it out, I might do so.
it's not disingenuous, just sloppy. at this time i do not give a fuck.
you want a forum where mods Act Professional and Follow Due Process and are subject to approval ratings, that would be not here.
I mean, personally, I think receiving targeted sexual and non-sexual harassment was a little more painful to me than seeing people trying to work out how to stop it, so. Not all of us so-called victims here want a moratorium on discussion.
Also, I can't help but feel like "stop this bullshit" may be a nice umbrella term for "stop talking about receiving targeted harassment, GOD, YOU JUST WANT DRAMA." Could you be more specific about what bullshit exactly you'd like to see stopped?
The particular user is attacking and attempting to destroy the forum policy. But the only disagreement actually in play is whether or not we should be "freezing out" users who aren't good enough.
But surely they could have just frozen the relevant subforums and not the entire forum
Because I would have known nothing about this and it wouldn't have been rubbed in my face if the roleplaying forums, for example, had just... stayed up.
I would never have even ben aware of Wiwaxia saying anything because I don't read their vent thread and I don't go on the skype group or discord
I don't like that this has been ground into my face completely unnecessarily.
Yes, this was after all in Wax's vent thread.
Most certainly agreed. For the last two months it's been like standing on the outskirts of a repetitive nuclear explosion.
Any and all suggestions that we need to ban people, or organize to "freeze them out". And I would sorta like there to be any acknowledgement at all that people with severe mental health problems losing control of their actions for a while is a slightly different thing from calm and premeditated attempts to hurt people.
Sorry about that. I have no clue how to freeze specific subforums, and I am on about negative-thirty spoons for a lot of reasons many unrelated to the site, and I needed the thing to STOP HAPPENING.
I do not actually have infinite emotional reserves. I'm sorry it sucked for you, and if I get some spoons and downtime I'll try to find ways to make more localized interruptions.
the spin on this is spectacular.
not punishing = defending
complains about how this is a tough case = reconsidering the no ban policy
noting that the bad behavior consists of typing words on a screen = the two things we react very differently to are the same ??
trying to drive people off the everyone's-welcome-yes-even-you forum = suggesting the community take a stand
except it wasn't an actual suggestion tho, and i doubt it would have been brought up again if you didn't have personal history with wix.
Okay, but I want to say something. Suicide baiting is as much a targeted attack on the most vulnerable members of the forum as attempting to organize a shun is. I understand why you're so mad that Wiwaxia tried to do this thing even without... it being much of a thing that I saw getting much support, but it feels like if Wiwaxia went and directly suicide baited Alix this would be playing out differently, which is kind of fucked up. While I believe some people have severely hampered impulse control and 'can't help' the suicide baiting they've done, there's also people who CAN but would do it anyway because they know they can.
Another question is what constitutes an attempt to freeze someone out. Saying it publically? Putting them on ignore and encouraging your friends to do the same when they get upset? If it happened through PMs, what would that mean?
Possibly, but this doesn't seem like a core issue right now? Like, maybe we can worry about least-disruptive ways to resolve these conflicts until after we have any ways to resolve these conflicts?
It distresses me that we're three pages in while Wiwaxia is still... offline, maybe? Yet to respond, in any case. I don't know how to fix that, though.
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