charter peanut gallery

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 22, 2017.

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  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    The area is public to the members of the forum, and was specifically framed as an attempt to get buy-in for a concerted effort to alter behavior among other users.

    And since the advocacy is for an absolute rejection of the forum's reason to exist, then it's not the antichrist, but it's certainly the antikintsugi.

    Saying things in a vent thread doesn't make them not-said.
    • Like x 3
  2. TwoBrokenMirrors

    TwoBrokenMirrors Merely a whitebait in the mayo of life

    Thank you Seebs, I really appreciate the apology and explanation. That makes sense.
    I do think that neither you nor Jesse should have got involved in this, though I am fully aware that I cannot tell you how to run your own lives.
    Now I'm going to leave this discussion again. There's still at least some forum members who are mostly ignorant of this flaming pile of rubble, and I'd like to return to being one of them.
    • Like x 5
  3. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    I'm sorry Seebs but you're going to need to quote examples because this is currently an accusation that doesn't seem to have any basis in any evidence that I am familiar with, whatsoever.
    • Like x 10
  4. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    if you believe it was framed that way, i understand, but i don't think the go-to would be a meta thread when you can't be sure of what wix actually meant.
    so? they're still allowed to have that opinion. is the only rule of kintsugi to shun members who want rules? because then we're getting into a logic loop.
    • Like x 9
  5. paintcat

    paintcat Let the voice of love take you higher

    • Like x 4
  6. Penumbra

    Penumbra hiding under cloth

    I appreciate all the mods have done but it can't be stated enough that we should maybe get some people in here who don't rely on spoons and don't misinterpret things constantly?
    • Like x 5
  7. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    @seebs Excuse please.

    Things you have said: Impressing upon users behaving badly that their behavior is bad does not help them act better, and in fact could make them act worse.
    Also things you have said: This is bad behavior that we cannot allow.

    ??? You've confused me.

    (I'm here and doing my best.)
    • Like x 12
  8. Petra

    Petra space case

    Everyone relies on spoons, you know.

    ...also tbh I am offended by this.
    • Like x 10
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    It is, but it's not an attack on the forum itself.

    Ostracization is an attempt to deny people the support network they might need to survive being attacked.

    Attacks on members suck, and we need to do something about them, and I'm still trying to find out how to do it better.

    Attacks on the social framework that we've built to help people survive attacks on them and other kinds of pain, however, are a force multiplier on every attack. Because ostracization doesn't just affect the people ostracized; it also lets everyone else know that their support network is conditional on them being good enough to deserve it.

    Coughing on someone and making them sick is not as severe as bulldozing the fucking hospital.

    Are there? Because I don't know of any.

    I don't know. And I can't prevent people from secretly organizing or whatever. But I can make it clear that any call for such a thing is an attack on the society as a whole, not just on specific members.
    • Like x 7
  10. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    This is true, but historically the forum policy has been to allow users to say things in their vent threads that might be fairly unambiguously considered abusive if stated elsewhere.

    Regardless, the particular focus on this issue still seems incredibly disproportionate and out of place, contextually, to me. I recall that I briefly suggested something similar to what Wax said during the Beeps debacle. While I regret saying that now, I seem to remember that at the time I didn't get my own several-hour forum freezedown, followed by a personal moderation thread addressed to me in the meta forum. It comes across as if you have a bone to pick with Wax in particular, which, from what I recall from the dozens of pages of drama threads I read through last year, you rather do.
    • Like x 15
  11. shmeed

    shmeed plant me

    as far as i read it, it literally was a suggestion. wax made a post about the social necessity of social ostracization, and then another post explicitly encouraging people to freeze out specific users, who they name-dropped
    • Like x 7
  12. Petra

    Petra space case

    So driving people off by suicide baiting them until they have to leave for their own mental health isn't an attack on the forum itself?
    • Like x 15
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    None of the people I've seen targeted for "trying to impress upon the users that their behavior is bad" were in any way unaware of it. Alix was completely clear on that, for instance.

    But this behavior? Several people appear to be thinking it's actually okay, and it's not just the result of a temporary Cluster B flareout. It's an ongoing long-standing philosophical position being argued for and upheld as a genuine moral aspiration.

    So in this case, we have people who genuinely don't know that the thing is wrong.
    • Like x 2
  14. Petra

    Petra space case

    Uh, yeah, absolutely. Have you checked out Kiwi Farms lately? Looked at the stuff neo-nazis do online to people who disagree with them?
    • Like x 5
  15. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    you can't exactly make a call to action in a vent thread and not that's so meta, though. people have opinions, and you can disagree with them-- that's all this is.
    • Like x 1
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    No, it's not. The individual people are attacked, but the forum community can try to help protect them. We can do things like try to add moderation functions, or restrict people's access to features, and we can try to make the suicide-baiting stop. The forum community is still structurally present.
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    If you use words which are a call to action, that's a call to action. Being in a vent thread doesn't make it not a call to action.
    • Like x 2
  18. Penumbra

    Penumbra hiding under cloth

    I've been saying this for ages. And I meant don't rely on spoons in the way that mentally ill/disordered/disabled people do. I get that everyone is doing the best they can but maybe the mods need a little help from someone who doesn't have to shut the forum down because they're having a negative spoons day
  19. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    a lotta y'all seem to be under the impression that the problem is a couple posts in wax's vent thread.

    wax has been pushing this "we need to punish and exclude" agenda for MONTHS, in many many threads.

    i tried to talk it out in PM's for a while. i put up with being insulted, and seebs being insulted, and didn't blow up.

    when they continued to reject all discussion of actions other than punishment/exclusion, i gave up. for a time there was quiet. then it began building up again.

    insults and insinuations against seebs and other mods. bringing things i said on my tumblr in out of context to smear my character. taking every instance of a meltdown or a trolling spree as a chance to get up on that soapbox again.

    and now, by some amazing coincidence, when seebs announces a mental health vacation and begs the forum not to make a mess while they're gone, it turns out to be the perfect time to post about how it'd be great if 'the community' could collectively 'freeze people out' for being 'serial abusers', referring to a number of people who had meltdowns or engaged in some standard 4chan bullshit.

    as seebs said, there's abuse ON the forum, and then there's abuse OF the forum.

    so no, i'm not going to act professional. i'm not going to try to sound like anything but a really angry and upset person who is fed the fuck up.
    • Like x 14
  20. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I thought we were talking specifically about Kintsugi. I will totally grant that there are fakers elsewhere. I have no reason to believe it's been a problem here yet.
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