charter peanut gallery

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 22, 2017.

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  1. AbsenteeLandlady123

    AbsenteeLandlady123 Chronically screaming

    Comfort is good an important yes
    also note that I have never meant to imply that the trauma suffered by victims of suicide baiting during meltdowns is somehow less important or valid than trauma suffered by deliberate and calculated cruelty and apologize if anybody has gotten that impression, particularly @ASPD Anon . I'm tired and triggered to hell and back and super frustrated about how to express and explain some things
     
    • Like x 4
  2. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    how dare we be more concerned atm with the person with the ability/power/authority to change things than the lone regular user who isn't even reading this

    So from other people's perspectives, people are leaving or not posting because they're afraid of getting melted down on and aren't telling you for reasons like "authority is scary" "authority appears to be defending the person who scares me" ect. Meanwhile, people who are leaving because of Wiwaxia are more likely to talk to someone who has similar problems with them. Both hurts are valid and matter but both sides have very skewed views so we can't know which one is causing more people to leave. I find your framing of it as more people are leaving because of Wiwaxia to be misleading at best

    Also pls stop framing things as "all people who want me to do something want me to ban people". Ffs, there's options in the world besides banning and making an admin thread to call out a specific user and threaten to harass them. It's not unreasonable to be frustrated with the lack of apparent action, AND this particular action.

    Anyways, you, Seebs (and probably Jesse) are probably not going to be able to do much without resorting to tactics you've already ruled out. (this is not saying you should, I will put 50 goddamn disclaimers that im not asking for you to ban people if i have to gdi). People who have been hurt by Wiwaxia or who are otherwise friendly with them might have better luck making an TCHGB thread or talking in pm. But I don't know how receptive they'll be right after this; I don't think I'd be very open to listening if I was in their shoes.

    Most likely, the best thing you personally can do is reassure the people who come to you that "everyone hates you forever" isn't going to happen because it hasn't happened with other people and that if they choose to speak out against it, they'll be met with plenty of agreement and support.
     
    • Like x 5
  3. AbsenteeLandlady123

    AbsenteeLandlady123 Chronically screaming

    @Ana Nimus genuinely interested in your perspective on other options that would satisfy people but also aren't punishment
     
    • Like x 2
  4. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    I think the winky face means Khan is referring to her relatively new account, even though she had another one before, which she said she abandoned after an explosion she had a little while back. So talking about not just dodging moderation by making new accounts, but dodging all kinds of other less concrete social pressure and baggage by making new accounts and subaccounts. Which is a thing I've seen people talk about here and there. I think BPD Anon's Dana account was the only one with the timeline reflecting 'made new account particularly to dodge moderation for incident happening Right Now,' and even if HFL's timeline wasn't the same as BPD Anon's, other less direct parallels have happened in other places.

    And I'm not at all sure if Khan meant to imply that people could dodge a shun by making new accounts, but that interpretation just occurred to me, so: It took me months after making an account to nerve myself into participating in any meaningful way, and it took me years to have any other users where it didn't feel presumptive to call them 'friends.' I'm a bpd-flavored person, but fear of shunning never occurred to me because my (increasingly rare) meltdowns turn inward, and also because I am impressively blind to potential future consequences until they are happening to me. Seeing that idea pushed out there now, like, I'm immune to suicide baiting, none of the explosive attacks I've seen have the ability to hurt me. But the shunning is terrifying. If there was any shunning effort directed at me, even if some people argued not to do the thing, I'd probably run and never have the nerve to come back, even under an account that nobody could ever link to the old me. I can't speak for anyone else, but internet level anonymity wouldn't do anything to affect my own perception of myself as a toxic thing with no redeeming factors, who's imposing even on the people who claim they want to talk to me. That's my self-view before anyone else starts saying it's for the good of the community if I leave and never come back. New accounts and fresh starts may work for some people, but I'm pretty sure there's a nonzero population on here where that wouldn't be any real help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
    • Like x 11
  5. AbsenteeLandlady123

    AbsenteeLandlady123 Chronically screaming

    I actually proposed a fresh account with a new name to BPDAnon once and he was gravely offended because that would seem dishonest to him.

    Personally I have reinvented myself on the internet so many times at this point for varying reasons (mainly harassment and shunning on one occasion) that it didn't occur to me that some people wouldn't be okay with doing that at the time, but I would be absolutely unable to return to kintsugi under a new name, ever ever.
     
    • Like x 1
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Oh, it's fine if you want to express the notion that my behavior is a bigger problem.

    I would just like it if I stopped seeing posts asserting explicitly that I'm worried only about future hypotheticals, when I've repeatedly stated that I am talking about actual harm which already happened.

    And yet! I'm the one who actually sees the thing. And it's not as though no users ever have told me that they've left because of various explosive people, or whatever. I'm aware that there's people leaving over many different things.

    But the big gap I'm talking about here is between me having seen, I dunno, probably ten or more people tell me they're afraid of Wiwaxia and that's why they're not posting, plus more coming out because of these threads to say that they were too scared to say anything because they were afraid that they'd get attacked... and people saying that it's silly of me to worry about hypothetical possible future harms. I'm not talking about hypothetical possible future harms. I'm talking mostly about harm already in evidence.

    My observation, which is admittedly an overgeneralization, is that when people say they want me to "do something", I've asked and asked and asked for any concrete suggestions of things, I've opened the floor to suggestions, and out of dozens of requests that someone suggest a thing, the sum total of responses I've gotten suggesting an actual course of action other than banning has been pretty much nothing. If I put a user on full-time post moderation and spend half an hour locking down their account and work with them and others to identify ways to mitigate their triggers and give forum-specific bans, and I talk about all of this and point out that it happened, what do I get next? A post saying that my response to bad behavior is to say "nothing can be done".

    Because nothing but bans counts as "doing something" to many of the people saying I'm not "doing anything" about the problems.

    That's been tried, and it has not worked well, and it's been rebuffed pretty badly. And, after all, they're scared that they'll be attacked and that if they identify themselves as possibly having the Bad Brain Bugs, they will also be targeted for exclusion. They're not super likely to go out of their way to call attention to themselves as prospective targets.

    Yeah, I'm definitely going to try to be better about that, but I don't think it'll change things a whole lot.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. Hobo

    Hobo HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA

    In the interest of not looking like I'm ignoring shit or turning my tail and running, I just want to say that I plan on responding to the people who responded to my post/s, just not right now. Definitely not in the right place emotionally for it at this point. Making those posts immediately before I left for therapy so I wouldn't really be able to follow up straight away wasn't my smartest idea.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Speaking of doing things about meltdowns:

    BPD Anon is the one who did a pretty comprehensive review of possible loopholes in the moderation software and account privileges and let me know where there were additional holes. At a time when he wasn't particularly expecting to come back. So in practice, he's probably put more time and thought into mitigating the harm from meltdowns than anyone else here except maybe me.

    I just feel it's important to give credit where it's due here, because he probably blocked at least a half-dozen things that could easily have become "horrible messages being sent by people having meltdowns" just by carefully looking through all the things and thinking about them. Calmly, methodically, and in order to make sure that nothing he could think of while angry would work.

    I don't think we actually have a single mitigation strategy in place that didn't come from either me or one of the people having the meltdowns.

    EDIT: Just to clarify, this is mostly a response to the occasional assertions that the people having meltdowns aren't doing anything, or aren't doing "enough", to mitigate the harm from meltdowns.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
    • Like x 15
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    ... Ah, shit, man. Yeah.

    I'ma take this opportunity to say: I really do want to hear those responses, when you're in a good place for them, because you've had a lot of valuable inputs on this stuff over the last year and change. Take care of yourself, 'k?
     
    • Like x 7
  10. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    In particular, fresh starts and new accounts only work if only the external stimuli are aversive. But so far as I know, that's never been true of any of the people having explosions; they've all been people whose internal self-loathing is orders of magnitude stronger than anything other people can do or say.

    Clarifying point for people who weren't aware: The reason someone explodes when you say a mean thing to them isn't that what you said is so strong and horrible compared to their nice peaceful happy self-image they have the rest of the time. It's because they have stuff way, way, worse than anything you could ever say already in their heads just waiting to be triggered. They're not exploding because of what you said to them today; they're exploding because of what an abuser said to them every other day for ten years. You're a trigger, not the actual harm. And that's why the explosions are so weirdly disproportionate. It's also why it's virtually impossible for any amount of soothing to really make even a dent in it, and why the explanation that "seebs is just saying that because he's biased towards you" has been so utterly devastating.
     
    • Like x 7
  11. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    I think a lot of the stuff suggested and discussed so far re: comforting and supporting the victims and better mod communication will help a lot.

    A: I am not any of the people talking about "hypothetical" harm, I am perfectly aware that you're talking about things that have actually happened. In fact, most of my response to you was typed before people started talking about hypothetical harm

    B: I think you underestimate how fast those threads move and how easy it is to miss a post or miss that part of your posts when they're so wall of text and people are upset and panicky. I know how frustrating it is to have people completely miss or ignore your posts. Like how you completely ignored my actual suggestion for a better way to approach such incidents.
     
  12. AbsenteeLandLady124

    AbsenteeLandLady124 Well-Known Member

    Sweet, yes, please let's talk about this
    so: mods for comforting people! Can we please shift the conversation here because I'm dying, squirtle
     
    • Like x 3
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    ... Did I? I thought that was the "reassure people..." thing, and I am planning to do that more, but I don't think it will help.
     
  14. Hobo

    Hobo HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA

    Cheers, seebs. Appreciate it. And for the record, in case it hasn't been clear, I don't think you're a bad person or coming at this from an unreasonable angle or anything like that. We just disagree on some major shit, and I'm glad we have an opportunity to discuss it, even if it doesn't go anywhere.
     
    • Like x 6
  15. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I think some of that may be underlying philosophy, some of it may just be information. Like, I'm aware of all the efforts to try to reach communication with Wiwaxia, if you aren't, it might look like this was a lot more sudden than it really was.

    Anyway, get some rest. Everything will still suck in the morning! Er. Wait. That isn't probably cheering and comforting, is it?

    (I'm vaguely reminded of my pitch to some of the young antis: "It's okay, rest and recover, I promise there will still be evil to fight when you're ready.")
     
  16. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    I keep getting hung up on the fact that the ideal here is no-moderation, but attempting to change someone's unpleasant behavior (even without putting them on moderation, or turning off their PMs, or disabling subaccounts!) is still a kind of moderation. Wiwaxia proposing a shun may have effects exactly as awful as harassment and suicide baiting. Let's say for the purposes of argument that we can quantify suffering, and that our arbitrary suffering number is exactly the same for both. Now I ask you:

    When does something go from a dissenting opinion to a threat on the forum? What merits moderation?

    Seebs, you goof. I don't want to "get rid of" anyone. There are people I never want to see again, but I can tailor my Kintsugi experience so that I never have to see them again, and that's generally enough for me.

    I was referring to HFL. If I'm wrong, I'll retract it.

    This is what I was trying to say re: sample bias in between me and Seebs.

    Nope, I was referring to HFL. I was under the impression that the new account Wildspyer was associated with was created to dodge moderation. Seebs told me the times didn't line up.

    It's pretty easy to connect my old account with this one if you know where to look. A couple people have, and they have PMed me to tell me so. :-)

    (Emphasis mine.) Gee, that sounds like something I would say! :-P
     
    • Like x 3
  17. thegrimsqueaker

    thegrimsqueaker 28 Moribunding Mouse Aggravates the Angry Assholes

    this is true. but that doesn't make it any less... frustrating? (there's probs a better word, but I can't find it rn bc it's been a long day) for them to be skipped when I'm trying to clear things up
    no, I figured that's what your ideal was. but, uh, so what? like, my ideal would be to live as a dragon. reality being what it is, I'm stuck as a mouse, and you're stuck dealing w a community that needs some amount of moderation (for so long as you choose to host it, anyways. I'm not going to take for granted that you don't have to run this forum, bc that would be rude and worse, stupid)

    so while you have a community that needs some amount of moderation, keeping them from it bc of your own personal ideals seems selfish to me? (idk, not wordsing well at this point but that's been bugging me for a bit)
    yeah, and as of like a week ago mod ppl were overloaded and burnt out from the whole mess, and the only thing keeping that from being the case again is that no one has set the forum on fire this week

    @KathyGaele I'm keeping out of the discussion around Wax (and rly most other specific ppl) as much as I can, but I want to say that your hurt is valid and you've made some points that resonated rly deeply
    yeah, no, ppl generally do a lot more damage when they're calm than when they're lashing out. there's a reason why the more gruesome murders and tortures are referred to as "cold blooded." ppl who are lashing out try to end a confrontation quickly. ppl who are calm will draw out the pain
    if it helps, I didn't get the impression that you were putting one form of harm above the other at all, just offering a painfully well informed perspective
     
  18. Anomal(eee)

    Anomal(eee) Grumblepunk Gremlin

    On the subject of comforting people, especially in light of there being a pretty impressively diverse collection of brainbugs and shitty backstories, I feel like comfort mods might be a more difficult proposition than it sounds on the outset. Like, for me? The gallows humor about life sucking is actually kind of cheering and comforting. I have many (oh god, so many, it's kind of ridiculous) examples to remind me that stuff that shakes me out of a funk and makes me laugh a little at myself/life/the situation is really fucking depressing for Kit a lot of the time. Maybe this is something that some people are just Secret Ninja Masters at, but... how are the comfort mods supposed to comfort someone in distress that they don't know that well? Like, I think it's a nice idea, but I'm honestly baffled about the hypothetical implementation and interested to hear what other people are picturing with this.
     
    • Like x 7
  19. AbsenteeLandlady123

    AbsenteeLandlady123 Chronically screaming

    Witnessing, listening, and offering to know the person better was my idea.
     
    • Like x 4
  20. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    I get the impression that some folks are comforted by somebody in a Position Of Authority having their back when they're upset. Or on a more intimate level, if someone can read the situation unfolding in the moment, they appreciate comfort based on that context even if the person doesn't have a deeper understanding of their life. I'm in a similar boat to Anomal(eee), comfort doesn't mean much to me if someone is like... obligated to provide it. For max hypocrisy, I'm actually pretty good at dispensing hella comfort regardless of context or my own views (much more a thing irl, I try to dodge being pigeonholed like that online), but I'd stay far away from accepting a modly position of comfort-giving just because it seems like a pretty exhausting and stressful position to hold, and (for me) relatively thankless. So it strongly doesn't appeal to me from either end of the situation, but given how differently people tick when it comes to their squishy emotional centers, I'm guessing it wouldn't have been suggested or have gotten an enthusiastic response if it didn't appeal to somebody. Y'all folks are weird, but I mean that very affectionately.
     
    • Like x 9
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