charter peanut gallery

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 22, 2017.

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  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't think it's a matter of "going from" one to the other. And part of the problem, as Beldaran pointed out, is that it's pretty easy to see how post moderation helps with blowups. It doesn't work as well with less-unambiguous jekyll/hyde switches.

    Fair enough. Other people have made it clear that they specifically want other people to be forcibly removed, or driven away.

    HFL did have other accounts, but the other accounts don't appear to have been made explicitly to bypass moderation. If there'd been more of a clear blowup/recovery pattern, we'd probably have been more careful, but even then, some of the subs predated things, so.

    It's possible, but I think it's worth noting, people absolutely do come to tell me that they're upset with the explosions or whatever. It's not as though I'm only ever hearing from one set of people.

    The thing is, for all my flaws, I have a pretty long track record here of admitting I was wrong, apologizing, and otherwise not particularly holding grudges over past events once they're resolved. (The qualifier may be significant.) So while there are totally people who are afraid to tell me things, there have been a number of those who actually agreed with me on some of these issues, but were afraid to say because they weren't sure. And at least some of the people who disagree with me nonetheless tell me.

    But that's partially because I do have the track record of apologizing and trying to fix things.

    Yeah. And I think you get that part, but I am not sure everyone else involved does. A lot of the accusations directed towards people who explode unexpectedly make a lot more sense if you assume that they result from trying to model the explosions as being motivated by something a lot more like narcissistic rage.
     
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  2. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Sorry, then.

    The key thing is: I am firmly convinced that it would actually make things worse. Up to and including "making the forum fail entirely to do the thing it is supposed to do". Basically, I understand that there's this perception that moderation can fix things, but in this case, I think we're already on the far high end of the amount of moderation the forum can survive without failing utterly.

    Yes, it's my own personal ideals... But those are the ideals that are why the forum's worked at all for what I'm trying to make it do. It can't be done if the power dynamic gets too firmly established, and once that happens, it's basically over.

    I've done this before, although less successfully, and every time, the thing that breaks it is the same thing: "things are not working well enough, we need to have more moderators to keep up, hey why do we suddenly have more politics and more power dynamics, what happened to the community".

    So, barring emergencies and disasters, I'm pretty strongly inclined to keep the mod pool super small, much smaller than you'd think we'd want, and see if I can salvage the thing. Maybe I can't, in which case, I'll probably eventually try again.

    That, and I actually did some downtime and let things be for a bit.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    To give you credit where it's due, I didn't understand this until it happens to me.

    My explosions, historically, have largely been motivated by stress + narcissistic rage = boom. This last slow-burn one (not December, these past couple weeks) was so alien to me, but it pretty effectively follows the minor inconvenience + validation of deeper issue = boom pattern.
     
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, thinking about it: I think that gets back to why I tend to place a lot more weight on motivation than outcomes. Because someone can be absolutely doing their level best to be as insulting as they can, and say "you are a monster, you are a fucking psychopath", and you could just sit there laughing because "holy shit dude do you even know what ASPD is". Or they can be just sorta flailing around randomly, and happen to hit a vulnerability they didn't know about. Possibly one you didn't know about.

    Motivation, though, tells you how they'll react when they find out that they hit a weakness.
     
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  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Went and made food, and while making food, I think I figured out how to express my concern about the idea of shunning people to get rid of the people who are hurting people.

    Say you think this sounds like it might work, and make people feel safer.

    Now go look at Jesse's early posts, and my angry ranting. How safe do you feel?

    Now go look at my "you are welcome here" post directed at Wiwaxia. How safe do you feel?

    Do you see any kind of pattern in how safe you do or don't feel, depending on what you're seeing? Cool trivia point: Several people who have historically been afraid of Wiwaxia nonetheless also report that they felt a lot safer with the welcoming post than with the angry posts, even though I was angry at the person they were afraid of, for doing the things they were afraid of that person doing.
     
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  6. Anomal(eee)

    Anomal(eee) Grumblepunk Gremlin

    Okay, yeah, I could see that requiring less familiarity with a person, and feeling heard can go a long way by itself. Still curious if anyone else who was interested in the comfort mods concept feels like chiming in!

    Also, a question: is it important that they be formally moderators? Because it seems like this kind of interpersonal exchange should be happening anyway, and I'm not sure how relevant being able to lock discussion threads or whatever would be with regards to their effectiveness at offering emotional support. Would a number of non-mod volunteers that have some kind of method of identifying themselves to the community (a little star on their icon or something, I don't know) be equally helpful? Because I can understand and appreciate the concern about the impact of increasing the number of mods to the power dynamics in the forum, having been on fora that went south because the inter-mod politics got too disruptive for them to moderate existing issues or maintain any credibility themselves.

    I am actually not one of the people that mentioned having an issue with comfort coming from a Designated Comfort Mod- I don't think I'd suspect lack of sincerity, since obviously they volunteered and so must care at least a little, but I think it's a really understandable thing to get hung up on. I run into it a lot at work, actually, and spend a lot of time going "Yeah, it's my job to help you with [thing], but I do also genuinely wish you well with [whatever is going on to give them trouble with] [thing]", so that might be part of why it bothers me less. /shrug/ We're all weirdos, and I hope we can work out a way to help more people feel supported and not so scared.

    ETA it is stupid o'clock over here and I have work in the morning. Going to try to do a sleep and stop rambling.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
    • Like x 2
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So my intent was, "comfort mods" or whatever would explicitly NOT get any edit/delete/lock/etc type powers, because I have really big concerns about overlapping those roles. So it's not really "mods" at all. It's just that there's a sense of "forum staff-ness" being a thing that would lend weight to someone's claim that you're valuable and someone cares what happened to you. Because Authority. So the idea is to try to have some way to make that a bit more compelling/clear to people so they feel like it's a Real Thing.

    Problem is, the feeling that no one cares, or that no one important cares, or whatever is inherently a brainweird thing, and as such, there's no consistent fix for it.
     
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  8. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    I mean, this is just me personally, but the welcome here post doesn't make me feel any safer. Still makes me nervous that I can do something to incur the wrath of either you or Jesse, especially since you said I'm pretty frustrating to deal with.
     
    • Like x 6
  9. devian

    devian Well-Known Member

    If we're going to talk about comfort mods and how they're going to work, could we possibly do it in a different thread? It would be nice for people to be able to engage in that conversation without having to wade through all the drama stuff in here.
     
    • Like x 7
  10. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Okay, fair.

    I think, though, in general people will probably find the welcoming thing makes them feel safer than the angry yelling. Probably.

    I also want to point out: I have some pretty good friends that I find very frustrating some of the time, even a fair bit of the time. I also think you've been working on things and trying to improve, and I value that a lot. I know it's hard going, but I will pretty much always give people more chances if I have any reason to believe that they're trying to get better. Even if they're trying to get better in ways that aren't directly related to what I find frustrating.

    So... I can't promise I'll never get mad at you, but I can tell you that I'll pretty much always, eventually, calm down and apologize. And I can tell you that it's not a question of you deserving me being angry. I just get angry at some things (or people) more than others, and not always for remotely relevant reasons.
     
    • Like x 2
  11. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Not a bad idea at all.
     
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    [miscommunication and response deleted]
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  13. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Considering wax's criteria for people that don't belong is anyone that has rage spirals they can't control, I'd feel unsafe here - and that was before knowing that many people believe the KF poop and want me out for that.
     
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  14. Ipuntya

    Ipuntya your purple friend

    like i said before, i don't think this is just a wiwaxia thing. i think that this is more of an ideological battle, and i am really afraid we're in the minority.

    there are quite a few things that set off my paranoia, but none as badly as the threat of ostracization. that is something i take weeks at minimum to recover to a lucid state from, and if i actually end up being ostracized, it takes months for me to become lucid again, during which i'll go completely nuclear and turn into an obsessive, hateful, monster. i never can fully recover from that point, assuming i survive. no one on kintsugi has seen me in that state.
     
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  15. prismaticvoid

    prismaticvoid Too Too Abstract

    When did they say that people who blow up/have rage spirals are not allowed here? (This is not attempting to be contrary, I am legitimately confused)
     
    • Like x 2
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't dispute that there's an overall ideological dispute, but there's a definite focal point of active advocacy for it. Most of the other people have been willing to concede that this is a non-ostracizing community, and accept that within this particular community, you can personally ignore people but it's not well-received to advocate that other people should also ignore them with the specific intention that they be driven off.

    My impression of the community's stance, taken as a whole, is that more people like the no-ostracizing thing than dislike it, at least with the limitation that it's how this community runs, not necessarily an absolute mandate for everything.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    It wasn't directly stated, but if you look at the list of people who've gotten listed as examples of people who should be ostracized and prevented from reentering the community, or people about whom "something" should be done by mods, or whatever, going back a year or so... I think every single one of them has had some kind of anger issue and had blowups. Calm and sustained cruelty don't even show up on the radar, only explosions.

    And it seems to basically come down to (1) certain levels of severity, and (2) happens again after an apology.

    And we've been over the whole question of whether people with mental health problems might, say, sometimes fail to control themselves more than once, even though they're sincerely trying to, on a fair number of occasions over the last year. :)
     
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  18. Ipuntya

    Ipuntya your purple friend

    i get the impression that there is a gradual shift towards ostracization, and that some of the people who "concede" that this is currently a non-ostracizing community would like to change that in the future. it's just a slow process.
     
    • Like x 2
  19. prismaticvoid

    prismaticvoid Too Too Abstract

    I don't think ostracizing is a good idea. I just think your characterization of the situation is kinda dishonest. I have seen no calm and sustained cruelty on this site. It may very well have happened, but I can't come up with an example. And yeah, I believe in second chances and forgiveness, but I can't blame people for finding certain actions (doxxing, suicide baiting, other threats) unforgivable.
     
    • Like x 9
  20. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    As one of the people that feels unsafe by wax's constant demands for ostracizing/shunning people who have mood control issues, I think her (edit: Seebs) characterization is accurate and honest. I was watching the poop from the beginning, in all the odd threads (excluding PMs, of course). It is not a new thing and not a new demand. The only thing new about it is Seebs and Jesse finally standing up and saying stop this shit - shunning is not acceptable outside religious cults.
     
    • Like x 5
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