Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 22, 2017.
It's probably not best to comment on it before Rigs actually does respond.
new strategy for dealing w txt walls- only deal w the relevant parts, rather than all the individual pieces
this is a distraction. the problem isn't in rigs' wording (and fuck you for making me agree w rigs, btw. I was enjoying pretending to dislike him, and then you had to do stuff that put us on the same side of an argument) it's in the fact that the forum staff has driven anyone off at all
...okay, seriously, why do you guys have superhuman expectations of forum staff/admins/mods.
actually question that. bc nobody's getting paid to do this, and nobody entered into any agreements to be Perfect Or Else, unless I'm massively misunderstanding the entire point of this forum. (hint for the thought process: individual users' preexisting expectations of a generalized Forum Staff do not make a consensual agreement of behavior.)
(also, want to be clear I won't be responding back immediately to any answers given to that question.)
what do you want to be done about it
people who don't want to come back aren't going too. im not a mod or admin but ive been trying to help translate communication issues and help people who are afraid and concerned be a little less so, so that fewer people will be driven to leave
acknowledgement that the thing was fucked up and hurt people and that was bad has been posted by the spouse of the ill and in pain dude who can't do it himself right now and all the mods
like seriously what more do people want I am genuinely confused
I'm not going to get red mad and nude, because it's not worth it here except for generating walls of text for building my water slide.
screams rigs please I am actually begging you just state what you want, plainly, no flowery lawyer language
I want Jesse to take a break from shitposting on Tumblr and wander over to the forum he supposedly administers and post, "I'm sorry. I will try not to do that again."
I would like seebs to stop playing nepotistic shield, but that is secondary. Plus I need some more walls of text to make the loop-di-loop for the water slide on tiki beach.
fucking thank you
im not being hostile, thank you
@rigorist I apologize for losing my cool there. You couldn't have known that you stumbled onto one of my most serious personal triggers. People not just...stating what they want, is something that I fundamentally cannot deal with in a hostile environment.
Dude, seriously, it ain't gonna happen. Jesse is completely, totally, burned out on the forum. He is not especially likely to come back in the forseeable future. This does sort of underline why I'm really not cool with your implication that it is only and exclusively "Staff" who have driven people away or made other people unable to enjoy the forum.
Your posts on this topic have been sorta fucked up. I think you are massively underestimating the severity of Jesse's current medical problems, and his total disinterest in being around the forum at all. He came in because I was upset and not coping well, he got shouty, it wasn't a great response, but he's not about to take another break from being in constant pain just to make the post saying that come from his account. You were also being super evasive about what you wanted; I genuinely had no clue at all about that, and it only became possible to find it out when you freaked one of the trauma survivors out enough for her to start panic-begging. What the fuck, man! You totally know better than to play the "I'm going to keep saying these words until seebs guesses that I mean something else" game.
And also... Seriously, "Staff", capital-S? This isn't that kind of forum. This isn't like the old ChristianForums stuff where people post things about how staff need to be allowed to do whatever they want because they are doing their best to walk closely with God (implied: unlike you non-staff). This is an intentionally very-informal forum where Jesse's never had much interest in "being staff", it's just that he got the magic powers because I wanted a backup I could trust not to use the actual superpowers badly even when he was grumpy. We are not "Staff" in some capital-S manner that makes us a wholly different category from other people. And I know there's always gonna be some social weight assigned to the thing, but...
Honestly, we keep saying "stop putting us on a fucking pedestal, we are not the saints you are imagining", and people keep saying "haha no you're perfect", and then when one of us snaps under load, people freak out like it's a grand betrayal because how dare we not live up to an image we specifically told them was bullshit. And I'm really just not interested in trying to repair the image of Seebs And Jesse, Perfect Saints Who Never Get Grumpy On Bad Days.
Jesse was not trying to scare people, or at least, not people other than Wiwaxia. And I get that his response there is Not Okay for a lot of reasons, but... I also don't really feel like trying to demand that he do better, because under the circumstances, I think he was doing a pretty good job of trying to keep his cool. (Yes, really. If that seems surprising, it's probably because there's a heck of a lot of circumstances right now.)
HEY A QUICK REMINDER I AM AUTISTIC AND WILL TAKE THINGS LITERALLY.
Yes, the wording is the problem I have here, because seriously, if he'd phrased it as "staff have driven some people off", that's something we've recognized many times.
And can I please have this framed? I just want to, the next time someone asks why we don't ban trouble makers, hand them at a beautiful bronze frame containing the text "the problem is in the fact that the forum staff has driven anyone off at all".
Now with Grim. Is there something you need to vent about on being placed on a pedestal and then dropped? Because I don't think Meta is the place for that.
This is a valid complaint. But I ask:
How would that be any different from the level of moderation we have for all the other users who have been very upsetting to other people? Apart from being noticably less restrictive?
While we're at it, how about you resolve a 30-year civil war by skimming newspaper clippings from the last week to determine what the problems are?
I guess in this case I'm gonna have to be unstereotypically not-all-that-autistic and point out that I would absolutely consider examples like that to be lies. That's not welcoming.
The entire fucking point has been, all along, to be welcoming to people that other people don't think should be welcome. Conditional welcomes like that are bullshit.
I want to clarify a thing, which is that I was being unspecific on purpose, and not with intent to accuse Wiwaxia of "sustained cruelty".
No, I'm not. And I haven't, but apparently people cannot fucking stop making demands and posting new demands.
But I'd like to point out: Among the things not helping right now would be you telling me which parts of my response do and don't meet with your approval. I am not actually doing things with intent to meet with approval according to your standards of forum administration. If you want to run a forum, you can run it however you want. I think you've got some good ideas and I think you might be fairly successful. You'd certainly be above average for the field. But the forum you'd run wouldn't be the one I want to run.
Yes, which will always happen. Realization is the first step towards recovering.
Please stop demeaning me by telling me to make my own forum. We've been over this. I'll explain what I mean if you drop that.
I think it kinda is when it's creating a perception that two people who are also disabled aren't supposed to be/allowed to be exactly that.
I have a personal discomfort with being seen as perfect and saintly that i have previously discussed here because it creates immense personal pressure. neither jesse nor seebs are immune to that.
Okay, so, this is actually a really good point. I guess I'd quibble over whether or not that counts as "doing anything wrong", but I'll absolutely concede that this makes a ton more sense than my attempts at understanding the thing did.
Cyborgism: I think I massively misunderstood your posts and your context. Sorry.
Seebs, we are not your emotional sounding board. I can handle it, but if you're trying to communicate and fix the situation, you need to start bringing in "I feel like" statements instead of accusing others.
i'm going to propose something that rarely works, but I'd really like it if even people not participating did this thing with me real quick. I am going to get up, and I am going to get a drink. I'm going to sit and slowly drink the drink I fetch, and think about how no matter dire things might seem right now, in a few weeks the sting will not be so sharp, and in a year this entire conflict will be a thing in the distant past. It'd be super cool if some of you could join me for that, just for a moment.
Thanks to Kathy's heroic efforts, we can basically confirm that the analysis is basically what I thought it was from a number of previous interactions; "people who have more than a very small number of meltdowns are clearly not actually trying to get better".
And that is some grade A bullshit.
So I think the thing is... A lot of us here have met abusive people who really were like that. They were just fucking around, they could control it but they didn't really want to, or maybe they couldn't really, but they made no real effort to change. And I know that this is a thing which actually happens. But I also know that it's not the only thing that happens. Furthermore, I know that you can sometimes get people started on actual change if you subvert and defeat that system. But you can't do that by using force against it! You have to use unexpected grace against it. Don't forgive them precisely the instant they apologize, never before or after. Forgive them while they're still screaming. Talk to them days later about what you're still upset about. Do not accept the implied cycle. And if you do that, and stay engaged, and help them develop tools for healthy coping, it genuinely can get better.
I've seen a lot of people go through this. It can take months. It can take years. You could be a decade from the last meltdown and suddenly everything comes together and bam, full on meltdown complete with incoherent cruelty.
But treating everyone as though they're just more of the same dishonest abusers who are using "honeymoon phases" and so on to hide the fact that they're not really trying to change? That won't just not-help the abusers; it'll create them where they did not previously exist.
Damn good question, and one to which the answer appears to change occasionally. In practice, I think it's mostly to make them Go Away and not be part of the community anymore, unless they can change so rapidly that we conclude they probably didn't really have the thing in the first place. And the question of "but what if it takes longer to get better" has been raised a few times, and I've never found the answers satisfactory, so.
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