Chat rules

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by hoarmurath, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    @albedo RE: no way to enforce things; Yeaaah, that's why I was saying that group consensus would be invaluable if there can't be a leader.

    I think that the "chat therapist" volunteer position would have to be something like the classroom volunteer who takes other ill children to the nurse's office. It's not the same person all the time, and the person signing up for it would have the wider support of the chat if they needed to tap out or get some relief of their own. There would have to be a kind of informal schedule of some kind, with like, two or three people "on call" so to speak.

    This is how we do it at crisis call centers, so, you know. It works, I just don't know know if people actually want to do it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
    • Like x 1
  2. albedo

    albedo metasperg

    @Beldaran Yeah. The problem is, even if people agree and consent, splitting is... sort of an altered state and people don't always behave rationally. And that makes things harder.

    I actually really like that idea. It's the sense of being always "on call" that's been a lot of what tires me out, I think - having a set duration and then passing the reins to someone else would help a lot.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. ADigitalMagician

    ADigitalMagician The Ranty Tranny

    I just want to know if @hoarmurath and @littlemissCodeless are referencing Sunday night? Mostly because I'm pretty much sure Codeless is and the tenor of the discussion feels like that's the primary event being discussed.
     
  4. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    I referenced it once, but when I speak of meldown or trigger cascades I also mean the two? (not sure if I´m misremembering a fight i had on here into one in the chats) earlier big fights that happened. So I am only discussing it as the latest example of a recent problem.
     
    • Like x 1
  5. hoarmurath

    hoarmurath Thor's Hammer

    @seebs I have a screenshot of Kijikun's earlier post. I want to post it, for the sake of posterity, but I am not comfortable with doing that unless I have general agreement.

    @ADigitalMagician

    I did not witness the event. I am not referring to that. I am referring to what I see seems to be a general tone of discussion in main chat during the last month or so and the few small events I have witnessed either directly or after they have happened by reading the logs.

    A part of why this topic happened is that the other option (silence) would have me getting down and dirty with someone in a fight and considering how fragile a lot of forum users are...well. I would likely feel regret afterwards, but the damage would have been done.

    Anyways:

    I feel judged too!

    I have felt extremely judged by some people on the forum. For quite a few of my ideological stances, really. That happens. Feeling judged and living through it is a part of life. It builds character. If you think you can go through life without being judged for something you do or are, well, sign me up for that ride. Judgement does not necessarily mean it's correct.

    I am not a calm and rational person. In fact, throughout most of this thread I have honestly been holding back very hard not to be cruel, awful and a jerk. Because I can do that, up to a point. And I am getting close to my point. I am getting uncomfortably reminded of the time I burned myself through acting as a therapist to a man who kept sucking me dry of energy. I am not a high-minded not abused healthy person who is coming in here and pointing the finger at the broken people, as it were. I could post my story in the abuse forum, but at this point I don't trust the general community enough to do so. Besides it's fucked up I'd need to do that to be taken more kindly/more seriously.

    Me being reminded of my abusive relationship =/= you being abusive.

    I am also bothered by how other people are burning out, like Albedo mentioned earlier. It's not okay. Like, it's really not okay. People aren't your free therapists.

    Nobody needs to be kicked out, for fuck's sake. Remember when I had a problem with BPD anon splitting on the forum and we figured out the best solution was moderation? And I have not been having problems with her anymore. In fact I am admitting (and have admitted before) I was wrong in my stance during that incident and the solution seebs came up with was better than mine. I am smart enough to know advocating for permabans or whatever is a fool's errand. And not one I care for anyway anymore. It's easy to ignore people on the forums, it's much less easy to hang out in a chat room constantly bracing for shit to go down.

    All I am saying is that:

    1. People are not bad for meltdowns.
    2. People are also not bad for disliking witnessing meltdowns.
    3. People are not bad for not wanting to comfort/moderate meltdowns.
    4. It's not okay to have undefined rules about such situations if that leads to people who help burning out and feeling bad.
    5. Stop telling me I don't understand the fucking implications. I actually happen to understand. I just don't agree.

    PS. Some of this is referring to the post Kijikun edited to erase, but I am too ticked off to separate it right now so you'll just have to live with that. Unless seebs gives me permission to post the screenshot.

    PPS. There are two issues I am personally seeing here:

    1. I cannot handle the chat environment as it is, and you cannot make the chat handleable to me since I am one person and most of the users disagree with me. Therefore I opted to leave. I don't think that issue needs to be discussed so much anymore. I do feel out of place on Kintsugi, but so far I have found value in staying. Please do not worry about me, if anyone is worried.

    2. Your current methods of handling the chatroom are causing people to burn out. This is not okay. You need to discuss this and come up with better options for the chat. While the chat grew out of the forum organically, it still sort of falls under Kintsugi's purview and either you have rules or you have emotional anarchy that likely is not helpful in the long run anyway. That's the issue that needs to be discussed. I don't personally have much to contribute because I ideologically disagree with the concept of utilising Kintsugi rules in a living chatroom, but there are all these other people who want to take part and have things be what they need, so. Their needs and what they want is the main thing here.
     
    • Like x 1
  6. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    We were trying to do that. ou decided what we were trying to do was not enough, or not correct for you, and decided to leave, which is absolutely your right, but i resent the implication that no solutions were discussed.
     
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't think it's a question of you being "one person" and other people disagreeing. It's that I don't have any notion of how we could do anything to moderate or control the chat environment. Like, I do not perceive a mechanism by which it is physically possible. I don't see any way to enforce any hypothetical rules, from a purely mechanical standpoint.

    I am also more than a little nervous about the idea that if people start a chat room, it creates a duty on my part to figure out a way to moderate it.
     
    • Like x 5
  8. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    Yeah, I certainly don´t think it is your duty to moderate the skypechats seebs. I asked you here to help discuss ways to make the chat enviroment more pleasant for everyone, not to make you responsible for it.
     
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't know enough about Skype to even say whether it is possible to create a chat with some kind of persistent ownership/moderation.
     
  10. Allenna

    Allenna I am not a Dragon. Or a Robot. Really.

    @hoarmurath do not post my fucking posts I deleted them for a fucking reason leave me the fuck alone. you got what you wanted a whole bunch of people shouting me down I deleted my stuffm now leave me alone. I'm not EVEN IN THE SKYPE CHAT
     
  11. hoarmurath

    hoarmurath Thor's Hammer

    @littlemissCodeless

    You did discuss options, yes. But they came down to a conclusion I did not agree with. And there's still not a good solution re: my issue number two. I still maintain the current chat environment is conducive to people who want to help burning out. And considering the background of most Kintsugi members, is it a far stretch to imagine people would overextend and hurt themselves out of guilt/kindness/some other emotion?

    @seebs

    I don't think it's your duty to moderate the skype either. But I think you have the power to make a lot of people listen and to ease minds on this matter, so I really appreciate that you are here talking about this. By virtue of being the forum admin, it does mean you have more of a say in forum adjacent matters too, at least in my eyes. And I think that other people think so too.

    Moderating would likely be possible in IRC, up to a point. But I understand that setting a chatroom up there and expecting people to migrate is also a big thing. And then we run into the "not okay with banning" thing. I don't even mean permanent chat room bans, I just mean that if someone melts down, they can be directed to a more private window with someone equipped to talk, rather than the whole room having to bear witness and everything getting worse as it continues. In the events I witnessed, having more than one upset person be in the same room unable to leave just made it all worse and dragged it out longer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    (I would agree with Kiji's evaluation that posting the deleted post would likely be rude.)

    Yeah, IRC it is at least physically possible to moderate. I am not as sure about the methodology, but it's a thing that could in theory be done.

    Observation: Usually, the most important thing for people is to feel that they are heard. Things like bans tend to make things escalate more permanently than nearly anything else, because being silenced or told to not-talk makes people much more upset than nearly anything else. So it's really hard to reduce drama by removing people forcibly from a conversation. The moderation strategy for users works because they can still post, they just have their posts vetted, but there's not a real mechanism for that with chats.

    Maybe we need another chat specifically for rants-and-raves type things, because some people will participate in such a chat willingly, and that means that if you go there to rant, you will be heard, but the people who dislike the conflict won't go there?
     
    • Like x 2
  13. hoarmurath

    hoarmurath Thor's Hammer

    @Kijikun

    If you want to be left alone, why are you posting here? Why are you engaging me? Why can't you leave me the fuck alone, huh?

    You don't get to come in here to attack me and then dance out claiming I am not allowed to engage with you. Either don't post or post, but make a choice.

    I will not post the screenshot, but it is unfair of you to come in here, fight with me, edit your posts and then say these things.

    @seebs

    I will not post the screenshot, since Kijikun replied just a second before you telling me not to.

    Yeah, I don't know.

    At which does some people's right to be heard at all costs trump other people's right not to have to brace for emotional shit all the time?
     
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    My main observation is that blocking/banning people generally dramatically increases the amount of emotional shit everyone else has to be braced for. So it doesn't actually help solve the problem it is intended to solve.
     
    • Like x 2
  15. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    There was the idea of making a safe chat for people are not ok with emotional shit. Said safe chat having a word or phrase, such as "Can this be taken elsewhere!"* that results in people taking their arguments elsewhere.

    As for ranting and raving, I´d think that could fall into afterdarks purview? It was originally made to keep commonly triggery stuff out of the main chat.

    *Better examples were given but i forgot them
     
  16. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    I'm also a bit confused about WHY a lot of this is happening on skype where moderation is impossible when it could just happen over here, on the forums?
     
  17. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    Can you elaborate what "a lot of this" contains?
     
  18. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    General topics of conversation including but not limited to; mundane interesting stuff, bad days, upset feels, abuse history stories, requests for advice, etc.
     
  19. albedo

    albedo metasperg

    @seebs Yeah, the issue isn't the topics of conversation - it's when other people in the chat are specifically and personally being attacked. Like, 'you think I'm evil and you want me to die' levels of splitting, the kinds of things that you were deleting posts for.

    That's the kind of thing that people are suggesting ... I don't know, twenty-minute time-outs for, or something like that? Specifically temp-bans for just long enough for people to calm down.

    @Beldaran Many people like communicating in chat form because it's more immediate and less googleable/less fear that someone will find it later. But yeah, forum works much better for much of this.
     
    • Like x 1
  20. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    Skype works in real time, and some people prefer the format. Personally, it takes...not actually less spoons but a different sort of spoons than the forum.
     
    • Like x 1
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