Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by hoarmurath, Jul 28, 2015.
Yes, agreed. I feel less need to be intellectually on the ball, in chatform.
I didn't attack you. I tried to say how and others were likely reading what you had posted and tried to point out the implications of what you said. And you and everyone shouted at me. I deleted my stuff and walked away. and then you dragged me back in but @ naming me. I was trying to give preservative. I was trying to let you know how really hurtful what you were saying was coming out and even offered up that we were all talking past each other. You dragged me back in here threatening to post things I deleted so that i would stop gettitng @ and stop being shouted down so I could get on with my already very terrible day. Now please STOP @ing me.
Also, I can access skype on mobile, whereas posting here over the phone is a pain for me.
Okay, but again:
So far as I know there is no way to do this.
Yeah, I know. That is the issue.
Woah now... having healthy boundaries that do not allow for constant emotional bombardment does not preclude people from hanging out with or being abused, mentally ill, disabled, or otherwise damaged people.
(Side note: I wasn't sure about approving this, because it's pretty angry, but I think it's an emotion that we can usefully discuss, maybe.)
I think this is creating a sort of implied, but false, dichotomy between people who are conflict-averse and have a hard time dealing with meltdowns and anger, and people who are mentally ill and may have meltdowns or anger issues. There's a lot of overlap in those categories!
And I think it's important to try to find a way for people to feel they can converse casually without too much risk of drama explosions and fights, but I don't know how to make that possible.
@seebs Well...we were trying to do that with the comfy chat, light topics chat, or safe chat. Perhaps we could Try that before writing it off as a loss.
Maybe quite fucking frankly you should stay away from me, thanks.
I am not playing oppression olympics with you.
If you can't take disagreement, then how about stop posting here. No one is making you come back here. You are a grown-ass person with agency, you are making the choice to come back. I am not leaving my own bloody thread just because you can't handle me refusing to agree with you.
I know I was being hurtful. Sometimes that is unavoidable. You think I have been posting here completely unaware of how this might affect people? Nope. But if you can't handle disagreement and people having boundaries, that is your problem, not mine. The issue of me not being able to handle chat had been bloody solved already before you butted in.
This is my thread. Walk away, stop posting, or I will continue to respond to you either you stop or seebs or whoever closes the thread.
You have constantly engaged in manipulative tactics while I have seen you post on this forum, and I am personally quite sick of seeing it. I think deleting the post was cowardly and if you keep pissing me off, it's possible I will post it. I don't really care about being nice to you at the moment.
PS. I wrote my olympics credentials here, but you know what? You can't have them. You don't deserve to have them. I don't trust you.
I very strongly resent Kijikun behaving as if the only way I could be opposed to what is going on in chat is if I am a squeaky clean unabused normal person. I am not. If I were I wouldn't even fucking be here. I know I should be the better party and maybe not post, but I refuse to cower to this. If someone fights me, I will fight back and I will promise my best to be as clear as I can.
I do reiterate that the issue of me and chat should be closed and that you look at the chats with the eye of not having people get caught helping others when they might be taking on those tasks because they feel they can't leave someone behind or so on.
That sounds like a good first attempt, anyway? Kintsugi Lite!
All this talk about light and dark is making me want chocolate.
If it´s ok I would dig up the original post for a partial solution attempt and quote it, and we can try that for a first step and see what good it does? Even if we need more changes later, it´s something.
Edit: I am so calling the safe chat Kintsugi Light now.
Some people can be triggered by other people having meltdowns or splitting. I am pretty sure this is the case with both hoarmurath and I.
I, for example, had to talk down suicidal or self-harming people a lot back when I was a lot younger and even less capable of coping with it healthily. It has left me with a strong reflex towards "nnnnnope, not dealing with this, augh" when people exhibit similar brainwrong these days. And if I have to see this a lot without reasonable means of escape, I will get irrationally angry, because I do not want this thing to keep happening to me and yet it does. This is not me judging those people. This is not me saying these people are bad. This IS me saying I cannot handle this, due to trauma of my own.
I am saying this to clarify why people might have very adverse reactions to other people's brainwrong. It is not because we are just callous people who know nothing about abuse or mental illness or being damaged.
Does splitting or meltdown suck? Yes, absolutely. But so does being triggered by it.
Using myself as an example again, I would talk with Hoarmurath about a thing that upsets her, any day of the week, because she is my very close friend and her wellbeing is more important to me than the energy I would use. But I would not do the same for any person and in many cases I would either avoid or get angry, because I don't know them and I do not want to be the person solving their problems and I especially don't want to witness things that would trigger me.
Personally, I don't see any good solution besides Hoarmurath and I (and other people like us) talking in a chat of our own, where the explicit rule is that meltdowns go elsewhere, no exeptions. This is not a rule that can or should be enforced in Kintsugi general, but it is a rule necessary for our wellbeing. This does not have to be a Kintsugi Light chat, since I won't be skype chatting anyway, for many reasons.
^The kintsugi light chat was supposed to be just such a chat. Maybe I didn´t state it well enough. It´s meant to be a safe place for fragile people. Of course, the flipside is that not everything can be discussed there, and if someone objects to a topic the topic needs to be moved to another.
I have a somewhat related problem - I don't mind talking about triggery things, and triggering me is basically never going to result in me lashing out, but if someone talks about their abuse too long and too frequently I will start internally screaming "THEN WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE". (I left at 19 and have literally never made any contact since. I am... given to understand that most people are a bit more attached to their families than that.) This is not an impulse I indulge, and I do not enjoy having it, but there is absolutely no doubt that it exists. Therefore, moving possibly-triggery-but-not-about-abuse stuff to kintsugi general would be very helpful for me. If this requires the establishment of Kintsugi lite (50% less calories!) so that you can move the truly non-triggerish stuff out of general, I'm all for that.
(I will be keeping afterdark on my chat list anyway because spoon tithe appears to be a requirement for my well-being, but I'd prefer to actually be able to leave it on mute and know that I'm not missing that much.)
Ok can I get a roll call on who would like to be on kintsugi light?
I think there's been a problem of people not being heard, with the current system though? They're told to move the argument from the main chat to after dark, and then even there, people try to defuse the situation which ends up being "everyone stop talking" and then the people arguing feel like they're not being heard.
I'm specifically thinking about the argument @ADigitalMagician was in, and I got the feeling she felt she wasn't being heard. But I wouldn't be surprised if other people feel this way too. And sorry for bringing the old argument up again, I just wanted to be clear.
So we might need some goiudeline on how to defuse arguments without silencing participants, once said arguments have been gotten out of Kintsugi Light
@hoarmurath is this the "can the chat be moderated?" thread or the "let's me and kijikun have a fight" thread? you brought a concern, people are making a sincere effort to discuss it, and you're derailing your own thread to have a slapfight. pull up.
I had come back to apologize for my last message being angry and not very fair to anyone. I'm not going to tell you how your message made me feel because you know exactly how it would make me feel. I am about to keymash my password since I am not allowed to delete or close my account. You and no one else will have to hear from me again.
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