Chat rules

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by hoarmurath, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    There's another issue with the Skype chat:

    You can't go back and see what happened.

    On the forum, if people have sudden conflict, you can go back and look at the posts and see who said what in what order. In the chat, you can't, and there's a lot more private side-chats going on, which also tend to make it worse.
    • Like x 3
  2. kmoss

    kmoss whoops

    Yeah, like, I can, because for whatever reason, my phone is fucking fantastic and lets me go pretty far back on Skype, which is nice since I worry about missing things

    But it's also kind of frustrating and boring waiting for stuff from like, 3 days ago to load.
    • Like x 1
  3. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Also anything that happens when you're not around. Like, if you come into a chat, you can't see what happened there an hour ago, so far as I know. (Heck, I can't even find chat logs of stuff I did see sometimes, because Skype's logging is horrible.)
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Maybe I am missing a thing? I was under the impression that if you were not actually logged in, messages that were never delivered to you weren't part of your history?
  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Ohhh, I see. That's very surprising, but okay.

    On the other hand, if you've just been added to a chat, you won't have the history, I think. Also, the history is editable.
    • Like x 1
  6. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    thanks for taking the time to clarify things, ad. i have a better picture of what you're talking about now.

    it's kind of sounding to me like the problem is the nature of people colliding with the nature of chats. which is to say, chats are fast and busy and do not wait for you if you need to think or take a breather; human nature reacts to this by speed-typing, escalating, splitting, and dogpiling -- all the things humans do when shit's chaotic and there are upset noises flying around.

    i don't think there are any rules or protocols that would fix that. i do think a specific set of people who are aware of the problem can get better at not making these cascades worse, with practice, and maybe even at stopping them once they start. but it seems to me it's a people-skills and patience thing, not a rules-and-moderation thing.
    • Like x 4
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    A big part of the problem is that we often have several people who are all in triggery states where they can't really stop themselves from Doing The Thing because of mental disorders. All simultaneously.
  8. kmoss

    kmoss whoops

    Yeah, like

    For instance

    When people are being very emotional, and/or if I am reading them as manipulative, I get flatter-voiced and more sarcastic.

    But I know people who respond to sarcasm and flat-voice the same way they respond to anger, which is pretty alien to me, since I respond to those things totally differently.

    (If sarcasm, I sarcasm back. I try to irritate people into laughing basically. It has mixed results.)

    This turned out really badly when I lived with someone from the more passive-aggressive Midwest (hm. What an unpleasant way of separating that. I came from wi/mi and she came from rural mt, so I'm sure it wasn't just midwest, but probably two different brands of family clashing...anyway), who also had a pretty bad issue with anxiety.

    That kind of, hm, waffling back and forth, constant worrying, near constant angsting about things she couldn't change irritated the shit out of me, but the second I tried to chivvy her out of that, she shut down because she thought I was pissed.

    I have anger issues and depression, so maybe I was, I just didn't realize at the time.

    And then of course, that shut down automatically pissed me off.

    So we have two different reactions just spiraling off each other in really unpleasant ways, and now that I'm moved out, I'm kind of taking a break from talking to, well, most people from that period in my life, because I feel like I was a fairly unpleasant person.

    At any rate, that kind of hammered home the idea for me that people react in totally different ways to situations because of a bunch of different reasons, and it's kind of silly to expect otherwise I guess.

    Shit this was going to connect back to the skype chats somehow.
    Oh, yeah, basically just that I'm seeing this happen more often than conscious manipulation of emotional states of people on there.
    • Like x 3
  9. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    i don't see an action anyone could take to keep that from happening, at least not that wouldn't be potentially even worse. like, i think someone stepping in and being like "you did not obey the warning, punish time!" and kicking them off the chat or sth would be... really not kintsugi. i mean i know there are a LOT of places where that would be a pretty normal reaction and nobody would blink. but.

    how to say. kintsugi isn't a Safe Space, but it's an accepting space; you (the general 'you') can't expect to not experience badfeels or conflict here, but you can expect that even if you don't handle those feels or that conflict well -- even if you fuck up pretty bad and act like a real douche about it -- you'll still be seen as a person rather than a problem. you won't be designated Trash and dehumanized for screwing up, like toxic communities on tumblr and such might do.

    now, whether that attitude can be applied to a chat, i don't know. what i do know is that you can't get there from rules. there's no checklist or plan that will get you there. it's just on individuals to do what they can.
    • Like x 3
  10. Void

    Void on discord. Void#4020

    hey, just wanted to apologize for the other night. I did not mean to flip out, I just have severe issues with people putting words in my mouth and being what I perceive as "hyper aggressive". I don't dislike you or anything, stress and button pushing just sent me rattling over the edge at 100mph
    • Like x 4
  11. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    what i mean in concrete terms, in this case, by "even if you fuck up you'll be treated like a person not a problem" is, even if i agree that what happened was wrong and it was michi's fault (i neither agree nor disagree, because i wasn't there and i didn't see it, so it's not my call to make), i feel that the problem should be addressed on an individual level: what can these specific people do to not have this conflict continue or come up again, or how do you/they/we deal with it if it does come up again. rather than trying to come up with mechanical solutions like new chats or new chatroom rules or procedures, which are impersonal and not very flexible.
    • Like x 2
  12. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    i think making an argue island post and inviting michi and perhaps a mediator is a good idea, though i don't know how disputey your dispute was or how upset either of you still are, and you might want to give it a bit more chill time first.
  13. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    *nod* for me if i leave a thing for a while, go watch a tv show or something to distract myself, i get less emotional, and i think that's pretty much the usual. so that's why i said that. but basically, yeah, whatever you need to do to be posting from a place where you can problem solve.
    • Like x 2
  14. ADigitalMagician

    ADigitalMagician The Ranty Tranny

    Can I mention the fact that the blow up I had in chat kept getting written off as splitting and I still feel like people won't let me talk directly about it.

    I got asked by a third party to explain the situation from my point of view and basically got told off for inciting drama. And, frankly? I won't stand for that.

    I had to take it to side conversations, with people who weren't involved to have enough of a conversation to calm down, and I'm still pissed at the way it's handled in general.
    • Like x 2
  15. kmoss

    kmoss whoops

    @ADigitalMagician actually, if you at some point were able to make a forum post about that on this odd little island, I think it would help.

    I...think that the entire issue was handled badly, and would like to at least observe and find out where the fuck we all screwed up.

    I also feel weird talking about it unless it's on its own thread, because I feel like it could become pretty long and possibly hijack this thread.
    • Like x 1
  16. Chiomi

    Chiomi Master of Disaster

    Yeah, Piper: probably start a thread in the discussion isle. You're having a hard time moving past it, and terrier-like tendencies should be localized if possible, not least because the way you're dealing now is hurting people unnecessarily.
    • Like x 2
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Huh. That's... well, okay, I had not thought of that kind of usage, but that seems like a good idea.
    • Like x 1
  18. ADigitalMagician

    ADigitalMagician The Ranty Tranny

    Just noting that I spent the time and I made a thread specifically for the event.
    • Like x 2
  19. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So I've been thinking about this more, and I'm sort of leaning towards a conclusion that there are a number of fundamental flaws with the chats as a thing.

    The most fundamental is: On the forum, you can leave a conversation without leaving the forum. If you don't feel comfortable in a conversation, or wish to avoid interacting with a specific user, you can do that. In the chats, you can't be in the chat but not in the conversations in the chat.

    On the forum, people get to pick the things they want to engage in, but with the chats, that really hasn't worked, and basically all the problems we've had involving the chats have come down to this. If you want out of a given conversation, the conversation has to leave the chat or you do, pretty much.

    And that leads us to the second issue, which is: While this community works fairly well as a community in which people are friendly, that does not mean that all the people here are friends with each other. And the chat format tends to rely a lot more on the level of leeway you get in interactions when dealing with people that you're actually friends with, not merely acquinted with.

    So I think the chats may be fundamentally incompatible with what we want from the forums, and I am not sure this can be fixed.
    • Like x 14
  20. I'm kind of confused as to why more people aren't just tapping out when they get upset. Most people (I am aware this is not all people) have a good handle on what is too much for them. So what's stopping people from leaving/closing the chat when it gets too much? I do that when there's just too much text to read anyway.
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