Just so you all know...

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Mar 29, 2017.

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  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, the thing with posting a rule and posting mod guidelines and things that's coming up?

    That's a change. We're trying to clarify things and get everyone to acknowledge and agree to them.

    What's not a change is deleting or moving posts that are too angry or fighty, which is a thing we were doing back in 2015. We haven't always been consistent about it, we haven't always been good about it, but it's not a new thing, and it's not specific to particular people. But that's not a thing that's contingent on the posting of a New Rule; that's a thing that we've always done, and doesn't require any new agreements or anything.

    There's a thing where a mod can put you on post moderation temporarily; by default it wears off after about 24 hours. It comes with a PM telling you what happened. It would be super cool not to react to it by, oh, hypothetically, spamming the mod queue with personal insults and attacks directed at the mods.
  2. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    Cool seebs, why don't you directly talk to the user that did the thing instead of vagueing about it like some 12 year old girl?
  3. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    Okay, but seriously; did all those Alix posts trying to incite suicide not qualify? At the time a lot of them were left up for a while. Surely that would be the one area where the moving/deleting would definitely be consistently applicable?
    • Like x 4
  4. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    This is why I call bullshit and double standards.
    • Like x 1
  5. Hobo


    Doing something only a few times and leaving a bunch of really blatant asshole posts up, making entire threads dedicated to whether things are OK to say in vent threads (where the consensus seemed to end up being 'you can say it, but don't pretend you didn't just because it's in Holler Closet')... that doesn't say that this thing has ever been any sort of rule. You've been so intensely inconsistent about it that trying to act like this isn't new is some serious bullshit.
    • Like x 5
  6. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    My experience is that Seebs vagues because it has happened MULTIPLE TIMES with VERY DIFFERENT USERS. It is left vague because it applies to everybody and being posted as a general notification because not just one or two people are guilty of it, so she feels the need to make a general notif for everyone to see.
    • Like x 4
    • Agree x 1
  7. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    No we know what this is actually about and you don't, so don't assume.
  8. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    Maybe it'd be helpful to appoint a more diverse range of mods? At the moment the moderation team is largely people who you were already particular friends with Seebs, and who agree with your viewpoints (presumably why they were chosen), which might at the very least create a perception of bias.

    I don't think appointing more people from other corners of the forum could hurt. Why not a system where users nominate people that they reckon would be good moderators, and then new mods are chosen with the concept of having a variety of experiences and the like in mind?
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Why, yes, yes they would qualify! If they were made now. Which they can't be because Alix is on post moderation.

    It's called "learning from mistakes". We made a lot of mistakes. We're trying to do better now.
    • Like x 1
  10. rigorist

    rigorist On the beach

    Tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution
    Smile and grin at the change all around
    Pick up my guitar and play
    Just like yesterday
    Then I'll get on my knees and pray
    We don't get fooled again
  11. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    True, I'm not involved in the drama, (and at this point am starting to become a little resentful of the fact that it's effecting my use and participation of the website) but just pointing out, I may not be the only one making assumptions here.
    • Like x 4
  12. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    And yeah, it does seem kinda inconsistent to have this huge to-do over whether vent thread stuff is okay and with no clear consensus being arrived at - beyond a general sense that it is okay to say some bad stuff in vent threads - as well as previous moderator statements involving the term "text crimes" (with the undercurrent that what people vent is not actually that much that the forum needs to concern itself with) - and then start confining posts and users to the naughty zone on what does seem a fairly impromptu basis.
    • Like x 3
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Which user, specifically? At least five people so far have complained about this. At least.

    And Michi... This is a great example of why I sometimes just avoid your posts, because this is rude, and insulting, and you're making assumptions that are as it turns out just plain false. Because you are specifically stating that it's exactly one user, and it's not. And if you'd asked, I coulda told you that.
  14. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    I will say that this is Definitely About A Specific Thing That Just Happened, so.
    • Like x 2
  15. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Okay, I'm clearly not communicating well. I'm gonna have to stop for a bit, but just...

    Hobo, please. Consider for a brief moment that I have a long history of articulating things badly when stressed and yelled at, and that I'm not a complete idiot, and that I'm not usually actually habitually dishonest about things, especially since I work so very hard to make sure that the complete record is available for anyone to look at.

    I'm not saying there's no change. I'm saying that the mere fact that some posts get deleted and some users get post moderation is not, itself, a huge change that could never happen prior to the actual Big Revamp which was aimed for this weekend or so. Yes, the parameters are changing.

    You, and a few dozen other users, were actively advocating for changes along these lines for two years. I'm trying to actually do the thing because you did in fact convince me that, yes, we need to put more effort into dealing with less-extreme violations, and yes, we should absolutely be better about dealing with the really blatant asshole posts.

    Are you volunteering to help? Because we have very few people, and the thing where everyone figures it's 100% open season to personally attack anyone who's affiliated with moderation is not really helping with that.
  16. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    as usual this is total bullshit and you trying to have an educated discussion on why it was totally fine to harass user X for doing Y while ignoring user Z who is also DOING Y didn't need to be responded to is also bullshit.
    • Like x 1
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Not disputing that, but I'm disputing that it's "vaguing". It's not directed at one single user; several people made the claim I was responding to.
  18. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    the response to being called a hypocrite is not making a thread for being a hypocrite in justified the different response to the similar situation, also fun fact.
    • Like x 1
  19. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    Honestly Seebs I really can't blame Michi for being abrasive at this point.

    I can very easily see why from her perspective what she's been through has been exceptionally hurtful and why she is so distrustful of the mods' ability to do enough. And I think that that's real hurt that should be acknowledged that the moderation here is partially responsible whether or not you believe the best paths of action have been taken.

    If what had happened to Michi had happened to me and the discourse had been so much in defense of Alix from the part of the mods, well, I'd likely feel the way she does as well. I know that you've talked about how that was unintentional and because of the way that certain actions were being perceived rather than how they were intended. But neither does that mean that Michi is at fault for being hurt by them and being distrustful and angry when confronted with your discourse style. Its an easy mindset to understand.
    • Like x 4
  20. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    I mean, though. My knee-jerk reaction from where I'm sitting is that this definitely feels bad, but also Seebs and I just very recently had a mini-debate about using immediate cases versus general cases. I talked about how expanding out to the general case frustrates people who care about what's happening right now, and makes people feel that Seebs is deliberately ignoring what just happened. Also a thing about how it makes folks thing that Seebs is trying to trivialize whatever just happened or brush it under a rug by bringing in other things. And that when people can think of exceptions to a general case, it weakens the statement (and the idea that this is supposed to apply on a broader scale) and gets them more frustrated.

    But also, this has consistently been the way Seebs approaches any forum issue. I keep getting fussed over this thing when it happens, and having to recalibrate for oh, right, Seebs takes this angle to problem-solving, right. Even within conversations, I slip and have to adjust. I think this is literally the first time I've managed to carry over that knowledge from one conversation to the next.

    I get the reason Seebs is getting reactions with this flavor of emotion, and I definitely get the frustration, but this is a very, VERY established pattern with how Seebs approaches forum management. Trying to narrow in on specific cases is going to be very difficult, because Seebs is going to keep adjusting to a wider picture. Seebs doesn't have the typical emotional reaction to what's happening in the moment, and doesn't feel the same intense pull to dig deep into the one particular event that just happened. So Seebs thinks addressing things in a broader context is important for future management (even if things have been applied inconsistently in the past, and maybe have been erratically applied even lately). And Seebs also doesn't want to set conditions that are specifically tailored to a single particular person. So this is going to slip hard into broader context, no matter how people come at it.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    • Like x 9
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