Just so you all know...

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Mar 29, 2017.

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  1. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    Also can we say that Vivec is being held to unreasonable standards compared to Alix? Like Vivec is always considered purposely being hurtful and a jerk when they even think a negative opinion, but Alix can antagonize someone they triggered NOT EVEN BEING IN A MELTDOWN and no one bats an eye.
     
    • Like x 2
  2. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    (Also the whole "lets take this situation and make it a vague philosophical talking point and assume the logical mountaintop repose instead of addressing the issue" can feel a bit :/ sometimes)

    (Fuck I'm sorry I'm now worried about hurting you or being ableist or idek, idk what its safe to think and who to agree or disagree with, this here is the stress I was talking about)
     
    • Like x 2
  3. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So basically:
    1. I'm in a really bad mood for a number of reasons unrelated to this.
    2. I can't social process right now.
    3. There are a lot of misunderstandings, and I don't even know how many.
    4. At least some claims made about things that have happened are definitely false.
    5. Rereading things: Yes, I was talking specifically about Vivec for the personal-attack spam. Sorry. I should not have brought that up, it was a distraction from the thing I meant to address.
    6. Also I'm really just in a very bad mood right now.
    7. Please remember that I'm on moderation so I literally can't respond in a timely fashion and I can't keep up especially when I have four or five different people making different claims and arguments and I'm the only one who could respond, but in any event I can't because by the time I could make one post, someone else could have made five. Per person.
    8. I'm gonna go do other things and come back calmer.
    So, yeah, that OP was not good and I'm sorry. But I guess what I have to ask is:

    If you want me to make considered, thoughtful, responses that aren't garbled stream-of-consciousness stuff, please slow down, there is only one of me, I cannot keep up with a thread in which individual users are making 3x as many posts as I am.
     
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  4. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    @michinyo, not trying to discount your emotions or anything, I'm very much feeling some similar things. But there's almost definitely some emotional confirmation bias in here for everyone who's been frustrated with Alix (me included). If I'm worried that the mods are favoring Alix, then it's really going to stick hard in my mind when Alix starts antagonizing somebody and doesn't get shut down right away. Plus I don't have a good picture of how much shutting down never makes it onto the main forum. So I'm seeing very little of anyone actively placing roadblocks in front of Alix.

    But I'm also primed to see Vivec getting the short end of the stick. So when some mod action is taken against them, etc., that also really sticks in my head. Because oh my god, Vivec got in trouble for X? When Alix didn't get in trouble for Y???? Something something statistical methods. I've lost all the pretty words that you can use to describe this. But everyone who's gotten invested in this situation, me included, is extremely prone to confirmation bias, especially in our informal observations and informal history-collecting. I'm not saying this situation you're upset about isn't a thing. Because I'm feeling the same flavor of emotional reaction, and my emotions pretty much determine how well I remember anything. But it's likely that even if there is a bias, it's not actually as strong as it's feeling to us.
     
  5. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    whether or not it's strong doesn't really matter given the fact there's still a bias and seebs is trying to justify it rather than acknowledge it.
     
    • Like x 1
  6. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    Sooooo, I was right and then you tell me I'm making false statements???
     
  7. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    How many times has seebs gone to make a thread and made a not good op now?
     
    • Like x 2
  8. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    It is also a persistent pattern :( Also frustrating, but also consistent. I mean, that people are pretty justified in expecting an admin to put things out there more delicately. But... Augh, dissecting emotional reactions is hard. I think that putting it that way particularly hits me in the place where people are like 'um, OBVIOUSLY you can do [social thing] better than that, you just aren't trying.'

    Yeah, I... I dunno, that flavor of criticism in particular hits me in a pretty sensitive personal spot.
     
    • Like x 2
  9. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    This situation is about 4 or so posts I moved, and I've explained it quite a lot already. There isn't any Seebs pro-Alix bias, this is stuff I did. If we're demanding that I be upfront with my personal bias it's much more likely to be against Alix than anything else. I'm not proud of that, I feel very uncomfortable saying it because it's unkind, and I do a lot to ensure it doesn't affect how I handle things.

    This isn't about people's grudge with Seebs and Alix and whoever else, it's just about keeping personal attacks from hurting the target and from hurting bystanders. Please guys... Just, please. We're people. :c
     
    • Like x 7
  10. Hobo

    Hobo HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA

    OK. It could've been communicated better that it was coming into play immediately, because it seemed obvious that this shit was intended for Newtsugi given the discussion surrounding it and the whole 'no one has agreed to The One Rule' thing.

    Well, I think the implementation is completely flawed. It's possible that my opinion has changed since 2015 (I can't even remember specifically what I was arguing for back then beyond generally not approving of how things went down with BPD Anon), but my current feeling is that asshole posts in most of the forum are fair game for removal (though I am really fucking concerned about how this will play out given biases and who is more likely to lodge complaints with the mods because of certain people not feeling supported by you guys)... but vent threads? I can't agree with that, unless the assholery steps over the line into suicide baiting, sexual harassment, actively using people's abuse history against them, etc.

    The way I see it, people SHOULD be free to criticise and be jerks and let their feelings out about people on this forum in vent threads. If people are hurt by that? That's fine. They should be free to also get pissed off or upset and/or try and hash it out with someone in their own vent threads or in TCHGB. If people hate Alix for what they've done and want to talk about it, that should be fine if it's in the right area. If people hate Vivec or anyone else who makes these comments about Alix, that should also be fine. These things are said and felt. Sucks, but I feel like censoring this sort of venting is neither healthy for the forum nor healthy for the user being censored unless they're crossing a line... and I really don't think Vivec's did.

    Nah. Frankly, I'm pretty solidly Done with Kintsugi. Only sticking around until BMP goes up, then I'm probably going to be gone... unless I really want to read the FF14 thread here. But I kinda doubt it. Sorry. Hope you guys can work this shit out.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    In general, it feels like these threads follow a pattern where everyone gets spun up super fast and enough folks chime in to support and elaborate on points that people are talking over each other and all through this, Seebs is on moderation, and it makes communication so hard. I'd LOVE to get these things untangled, I'd love to deal with them at a deeper level, I'd LOVE for them to stop being an issue. I'm sick of fighting. I'm sick of the blowups. I'm sick of these threads going the way they always go.

    And in particular, Seebs just said they can't social process right now. Can we PLEASE not push the issue right this very second? Maybe leave it just until the morning? When we push Seebs hard when they're already strung out, it makes it harder for them to words, it makes it harder for other people to understand their words, and the whole conversation gets more complicated and messy until we have... another one of these threads. Maybe even just a delay until tomorrow morning? I'd seriously love to break this apart and get it FIXED, and there isn't a chance in hell it's going to happen tonight. Nothing constructive is going to happen when Seebs is already not social processing, and pushing while that's the case is just going to make it more of a mess. I really want to fix something instead of all of us talking in emotionally loaded circles for sixty pages.
     
    • Like x 11
  12. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Spock is right, this was a bad time for this thread to exist. I feel like it should be locked until Seebs is actually around and capable of engaging. Are there any strong objections?
     
    • Like x 4
  13. Hobo

    Hobo HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA

    FTR: I only post straight away because otherwise I will literally forget everything I intend to say by the next morning, and even without seebs around the threads tend towards moving quickly and posting my own thing later just sort of... makes it incredibly off-topic. I really don't expect an immediate reaction from seebs or anyone else.

    And nah Bel, that's fine by me.
     
  14. Aondeug

    Aondeug Cringe Annoying Ass Female Lobster

    Please lock it. Now.
     
    • Like x 1
  15. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Hey man, I'm not glued to the internet, I'm doing stuff as quickly as I can. :I
     
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Just so it's out there:

    Vivec made some posts asking questions like "why do you assume I'm neurotypical" and "why do you assume I'm acting out of malice but assume Alix is acting out of mental illness", and... those are actually fair questions, and my answer is "I have no basis for those assumptions".

    So, take a step back from your particular place in the endless chain of provocations, and admire the beauty of this: Alix gets upset, Alix says hurtful things, people are hurt, those people and their friends blame Alix. Vivec gets upset, Vivec says hurtful things, people are hurt, those people and their friends blame Vivec. Seebs gets upset, seebs says hurtful things, those people and their friends blame seebs.

    Three people, all of whom have mental health problems, all reacting angrily to being hurt or seeing their friends hurt. And yet, responses to these are massively inconsistent, because of how people feel about the various participants.

    But now that I've calmed down some, and thought about it? Yeah, actually, Vivec had a pretty good point on that. And I was unduly hostile and didn't acknowledge that mental health could play a role in that, or just general emotional state. And I was so busy thinking about how one of my friends got hurt that I didn't stop to think "gosh, is Vivec actually just evil, or is Vivec maybe a not particularly evil person who is lashing out because of pain?" And that was stupid. Sorry, I ... usually know better, but sometimes I lose sight of things.

    And obviously I know Vivec isn't "evil", because that's ridiculous. And I shoulda calmed down before posting. And maybe other people also should calm down before posting? But that's a thing you guys gotta decide for yourselves. Me? I'm gonna try harder to calm down before posting.
     
    • Like x 1
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