Lemme Tell You About Ibby

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Okay, so, time for a story.

    Back in the day, in Rift, there was one user on my shard whom everyone knew, and nearly everyone hated. It was Ibby. Ibby just spent all her time in chat yelling obscenities at people. She made no fucking sense. She'd get stuck on words or phrases, repeating them a lot. She'd argue with empty space. We think some of it was not understanding how the chat system worked, but a big part of it was schizophrenia. (I talked to people who knew her IRL.)

    So, basically, any time she was on, you got 4-6 hours of constant obscenities, incoherent threats, and so on.

    So, problem user. I spent a lot of time trying to convinced them to ban her.

    Anyway, one night, it was quiet, someone asked a question in chat, and Ibby responded helpfully. People chatted. Ibby was cool.

    ... I was sort of surprised.

    So, after a while, I found out: One of the regular relatively-stupid trolls, not really especially mean, just a dumbass, had a huge crush on her and stalked her obsessively. We all thought he was joking, but so far as I can tell, he was completely serious and thought they were fated to be together and stuff. And whenever he was around, or people talked about him, she lost her shit entirely.

    Now, that doesn't mean her behavior was okay. It was horrible. Death threats, homophobic slurs, whatever other slurs, and so on.

    But it happened when people poked her.

    And they kept poking her. Heck, some of them did it because they enjoyed getting a response.

    So, for an MMO, the solution is that eventually Ibby did get banned, because she couldn't self-regulate, and she made the game unfun for a lot of paying customers.

    But this is not an MMO. Here, I'm interested in trying to help people get better, and that means that I am not gonna kick out the Cluster B folks for being symptomatic. I'm gonna try to find ways to use moderation and tools to mitigate their symptoms, and I know that's not always gonna work, and it's gonna be a long slog and involve a fair bit of pain. But I also know that it actually produces incredible improvements over time.

    What I am not okay with is the bear-baiting. If you know perfectly fucking well that someone has roughly zero emotional regulation, and you poke them until they explode, and then point to the explosion and say "AH-HAH THEY ARE THE BAD ONE", I am not gonna buy it. If you have a problem with them, put them on ignore. If you insist on following them around and interacting with them and saying horrible toxic shit to them, you are actually more of a problem than they are. And unless you're also rockin' a severe cluster B personality disorder, you could stop.

    I saw someone say, on this very forum, that it is impossible for another person to do anything but hurt people. Not even "you can't stop hurting people", but "you can't do anything but hurt people". And advocate for them being forcibly institutionalized, when shitty institutions are where the trauma came from.

    I saw that, and you want me to think that someone's unambiguously symptomatic cluster B flameouts are the big problem, and the systematic mistreatment of that person to get reactions out of them is not the big problem? Fuck no.
    • Like x 2
  2. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    for fuck's sake can you say this shit to maya's face or what, seebs.
    • Like x 2
  3. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    guess what? victims are allowed to be hurt. maybe talk to the victims in question rather than going "holier than thou" and vaguing about their vent threads in public as an argument to use.

    it's a heartwarming story, but don't force people into fake kindness. the fuck?
    • Like x 6
  4. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    So... I.... didn't poke the bear? And still got hurt????
    • Like x 7
  5. Birdy

    Birdy so long

    Is this about today's nonsense? Didn't you say yourself that the troll was doing it to get a specific reaction and didn't seem symptomatic?

    I'm confused and I think a couple people are
    • Like x 8
  6. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    anyone else laughing how "several people" went to "one"

    you are not fucking slick, seebs. are you going to apologize to maya for using her MID-BREAKDOWN POST as evidence about how horrible your userbase is being?
    • Like x 8
  7. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    Michi was threatened with the potential leaking of her information. Yes, it was not explicitly stated, "I'm gonna release this," but how the hell is, "Look at all this info about you I have~" not a threat???

    Yes, nothing was posted publicly, but a threat was made. Even if it was a fake threat, we still evacuate buildings when bomb threats are made. Even if there are no bombs. We do it to keep people safe. More needed to be done to address the fact that someone on this forum was threatened with having their private info leaked.
    • Like x 8
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yes. Alix, however, is symptomatic as fuck, and I am not willing to say "oh, look, these symptomatic responses are worse than the behaviors that provoke them, therefore the behaviors that provoke them, and that are done repeatedly by the same people even though they know about the mental health problems, are not in any way an issue".
  9. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    @a tiny mushroom Oh yeah, nothing was done today to keep people safe, I wasted my entire day here doing absolutely nothing.
  10. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    once again you're getting your knickers in a twist people don't feel helped when others were threatened.
    • Like x 4
  11. Birdy

    Birdy so long

    Okay thanks for clarifying
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    What exactly "needed to be done"? Be specific. Explain why those things "needed" to be done. For extra credit, and to prove yourself slightly more competent than the US government, explain how the proposed course of action would have prevented the threatened leak of information. Because if all that's on the table is Doing Something for the sake of Doing Something, even though the something has no impact on the actual threat, you can just go look up the TSA any time you want, they've got you covered.
  13. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    I'd like to know what I, specifically, did to provoke threats and prolonged harassment. As far as I can tell, I... disagreed civilly with Cedar about the Women's March, and all hell broke loose. Is there something I didn't see, or something I'm overlooking?
    • Like x 5
  14. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    bel, if people don't feel helped, here's an idea!
    ask what you can do help, rather than complaining about how ungrateful they're being. they want something you can't give? apologize and say your hands are tied.
    • Like x 7
  15. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    Lock the thread. Temporarily ban the user if you don't wanna go full ban hammer. Fucking reassure the forum that you put actual threats to our IRL meatspace lives and safety on the same level as your desire to not implement rules. Like yes, nothing would fuckiung stop an information leak if the person was REALLY determined but fuck, it just seemed like you were telling Michi, "Oh well, you should be better at internet security." Which btw I agree with, that still doesn't make the threats okay!

    Also cool and totally not antagonistic response to me trying to point out the disappointing lack of mod response, thanks.

    BTW I give zero fucking shits about the Alix situation outside of concern for everyone involved, I don't even know what happened there, I'm responding specifically to no one fucking acknowledging that Michi was threatened. I mean fuck, the threat involved her baby niece. What the fuck,
    • Like x 6
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    long story short:

    bear-baiting is shitty behavior.

    if you bear-bait and get mauled, i am not gonna put the bear down for being a threat.
    • Like x 1
  17. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    I don't know about the poop that happened - never appeared in any of the places I read on Kintsugi. Y'all know my family is VERY protective of my RL info. Someone trying to spread what they think they know is a bit scary to me since it already happened once (not that they had accurate info, but that they had enough to make things unpleasant for family).

    BUT - there is nothing that can be done to stop someone from posting it if they really have it. There is literally NO WAY to stop them. You could block them on this site, institute a user registration system that prevents anonymous logins - which would drive away the very people you are trying to protect since then those of us who have reason to be invisible would not be able to log in.
    Block the login that claims to have the info? They make a new account and spread it anyway. They spread it on tumblr/fb/twitter/whatever.

    Calls for action are well-meant, and I am sympathetic to the victim. A little less sympathetic to @seebs since she went all with the 'helping the person with brainwierds' and didn't even mention that there is no practical way to stop the threatened action. (I'm also a lot less sympathetic to the person claiming to have the brainwierd causing them to be an asshole, but that's a personal opinion.)
    • Like x 3
  18. leo

    leo Well-Known Member


    hey seebs, wasn't a big part of your blog a few months ago about victim blaming?
    • Like x 4
  19. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    i dont think anyone wants to shoot the bear. or even declaw the bear.

    they want the bear to apologize and change.

    can you give us that, seebs? hmm?
    • Like x 3
  20. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    I don't think anything anyone did provoked the initial attack, and that attack was unconscionable. 100% no one but Alix did anything wrong. YOU didn't do anything wrong. I lost all respect for her ages ago, but I understand the position she's in. Young and ill and without tools she needs.

    The days and days of loud shit talking precluding the second meltdown are different. People do that, and I lose all respect for them. I understand the position they are in, more or less young, more or less ill, and often without the tools they need.

    It's a right mess, but I think the back and forth provoking is least tolerable when people are casually gleeful about it. I don't know that you in particular were doing that, that's not an accusation. But it's a thing that happens that I'm really over.
    • Like x 5
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