Lemme Tell You About Ibby

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    perhaps a 1:1 ratio, then? same/similar timezone between someone who can counsel and someone who can delete.
  2. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yes, I'm aware of the "freezing people out" thing. It's a considered choice in this case.

    I guess I want to stress: None of the ideas I have seen in this thread are ideas I have not previously tried when running communities. None of them. Seriously! We have done "staff are counselors". We have done "lots of public feedback on everything and everyone participates in setting policy". We've done formal structures with appeals hearings, we've done carefully organized rules and lists, we've done all of these things at one time or another.

    I'm not unaware of these alternatives. I've thought about them, and in most cases, I've actually tried them for at least a few months to see how they worked out.

    EDIT: I should point out, I don't think "freezing people out" is a good outcome. I think it sucks. I just think it sucks marginally less than some of the side-effects I've had from alternatives.
    • Like x 1
  3. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    also, mods who are looking: if you're annoyed that people think you're not doing enough, i know one victim you can talk to. michinyo has been pleading for help for hours, specifically from staff.
    • Like x 5
  4. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    are you refusing the proposal, then? because i don't exactly see how that is relevant.
    if you're denying the idea you yourself brought up, is your approach to people feeling ignored not going to change whatsoever?
  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Okay, to clarify:

    My default assumption was that the "counsel" category would be "everyone on the forums when possible, but people who have mod powers are probably discouraged from doing a ton of it because it can create serious social problems".

    So I was thinking about a 500:1 ratio, by default. If we have to formalize it it'll necessarily be much lower.
    • Like x 2
  6. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    Amazingly we don't have a full list of what you have and have not tried so could you try to be a little less condescending?
    • Like x 5
  7. Artemis

    Artemis i, an asexual moron

    I would like to state my support of this as a member-group. Whether a person can perform mod duties is, to me, also irrelevant to whether someone can perform meditation/counselling effectively, and having a clearly indicated group for both would be helpful, I think.
    • Like x 3
  8. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    i believe having people in specific roles close to mods would help the problem, rather than assigning help to forum-goers.
    • Like x 2
  9. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    A conversation about that would be awesome, AND cannot happen when everyone is tired and upset. People only think to ask when shit is on fire or when they are mad and inclined to angry yelling. That's the worst time to demand that someone relate a lifetime of experience. But if people need that info, they can't be expected to just not need it. It would be much better if Seebs could lay this all out, but right this moment when everyone on all sides are justifiably annoyed is not going to go well.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 5
  10. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    That's fair, but when you keep bringing up how you have so much more experience, it comes across as extremely dismissive. Especially when Leo is bringing up things you're not addressing (like communication problems), in favor of coming back to the same thing (what to do with blowups) over and over.

    If we're going to duel with experience, though? Fine. I've been involved with many, many forums and online communities over the past 20 years, and of those the communities that do what I've been suggesting wrt clarity of communication have had it work really really well, for years on end. Members of those places have in general felt like they're kept informed and the forum well-maintained, even when the mods of the place have had a very light touch.
    • Like x 15
  11. Petra

    Petra space case

    It'd feel a lot less cold of you to at least engage enough w/ Leo to explain why you think specific things won't work, though. I know you've got limited spoons but I think that's part of what's so upsetting. Like it doesn't make you feel inclined to listen when someone keeps telling you to do and not do things but won't explain why, right?
    • Like x 8
  12. Petra

    Petra space case

    Like even if you don't have the energy to respond in-depth to every single suggestion, which WOULD take a lot of energy, responding by ignoring is also not working and is not working in a way that builds up stress and makes people more inclined to dismiss you. I think a middle ground is needed and would improve things.
    • Like x 5
  13. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    That wasn't so much a request for Seebs's history as a request for her to remember that we're not all aware of it and thus don't know what she has and hasn't tried, so maybe be a little more patient while we go over what's covered ground for her.

    I have also been consistently ignored by seebs and I know not everything I've said is overly snarky bullshit. I do appreciate Beldaran responding but I am getting fed up with the ignoring from seebs
    • Like x 6
  14. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    When people chimed in informally to console and validate me, you complained about how it made the people I was in conflict with feel unwelcome or something.
    • Like x 11
  15. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Oh, hey, look, it's a can with a mysterious label reading only "WORMS", I wonder what is in it. I shall open it and find out.

    So, to clarify: A whole lot of different people said a whole lot of different things which were intended to console and validate you. Some of those things pretty strongly communicated "this other person is bad and should feel awful and should never be allowed on the forum". Some of them communicated nothing of the sort. I have not done a great job (or a good job, or probably really any job at all) of communicating the distinction there, or why I think it matters.
    • Like x 3
  16. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    people are allowed to have differing opinions and, when offered to, voice their opinions as well. if you personally disagree, you personally disagree.
    • Like x 2
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This is a real issue, and a serious problem. I have finite spoons, and I've been under significant stress, so I just can't functionally engage with a lot of people. And sometimes my solution is "pick off the people who are offering the most stress for the least beneficial communication", and sometimes it's something else.

    I've been less-unhappy with "ignore relatively quickly, be willing to change my mind if someone says I was too hasty" than I was with attempts to continue engagement when it wasn't working.
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    In general, I agree.

    Okay, with the qualifier that I'm now aware that the thing was more meltdown-talking than an actual statement of considered opinion, consider the opinion "all you CAN do is hurt people". I think this is a case where, while I would grant that people are totally allowed to have the opinion, I think we've got good evidence that expressing such opinions of people is pretty uniformly going to have horrible effects. If people never had opinions like that of other people, or never acted on them or expressed them, I'd guess that a lot of the people around here would never have gotten all that traumatized in the first place. There's a lot of cases where an opinion can be pretty clearly shown to be sufficiently-damaging that it might be reasonable to just not bring it up.

    And part of the problem, both here in particular and in, say, politics in general right now, is: People tend to respond to demonizing by demonizing the people doing it, to varying extents. For instance, when I saw only posts on "leo", the drama sub, it seemed like you were pretty uniformly mean to people... And the fact that you were talking like that about other people made it easier for me to think like that about you, even though once it was pointed out again that this was a drama sub, I knew better. Heck, if I'd thought about it for five seconds, I'd have remembered that Maya's not usually much like that either.

    And if Alix didn't do such scary shit when melting down, I suspect people might have been more inclined to stop and think "hey, this shitty behavior isn't really that much like Alix's shitty behavior, is it?"

    And so on.

    Which is one of the reasons that, when I have the emotional range to deal with it, I try to slow down and add the qualifiers or clarifying context and make it clear that I'm talking about a narrow and specific thing and not trying to offer generalizations.

    I know this will sound utterly surreal coming from me, but sometimes I think a certain amount of consideration or tact could be a good idea. (And yes, I am filtering my opinions and emotions a fair bit when talking here. Scary, huh?)
  19. Petra

    Petra space case

    I figured that was the case. In which case I think going 'I would like to be able to engage with you on this topic, but I don't have the spoons right now. I've tried what you're suggesting on another forum and it didn't work out. Thank you for your input' or something like that would help massively.
    • Like x 12
  20. Petra

    Petra space case

    Basically even if you can't functionally engage, indicating that you've read the suggestion and politely explaining why you can't explain why you won't do the thing is a lot more satisfying for the person who suggested the thing than getting ignored. It gives them an indication that they've been heard even if the result might not be what they wanted.
    • Like x 10
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