Lemme Tell You About Ibby

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. electroTelegram

    electroTelegram Well-Known Member

    a smaller spoon response could be to "like" the posts you see but dont have spoons to/dont want to respond to -- it gives the message of "i have seen this" without having to words a response
    • Like x 6
  2. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    That's true, it can hurt, but I believe they have a right to be said, regardless of the reason why. Hurting people is your responsibility, but not everyone is in their right mind when speaking... that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to speak.
  3. Artemis

    Artemis i, an asexual moron

    Can you clarify this, please? I'm lost.
  4. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    If your actions hurt somebody, it's your responsibility. Regardless of what's going on, you have to be held accountable to your actions... reasonably, anyway.
    • Like x 3
  5. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    Thank you for showing a little humility on this issue, I genuinely appreciate it.
    • Like x 15
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Fair enough. A lot of the writing about how more "needs" to be done, and so on, has come across to me as fairly dismissive, and as simply assuming I've never thought of any of these issues before.

    Which specific suggestions are you talking about? I've seen a lot of suggestions.

    I would point out: I am aware of the script thing, and I have conflicted feelings, because they absolutely do a good job of making people feel better, usually, but they come with the cost that at that point either it's super obvious when you go off script, or you may sometimes have to lie, and I don't entirely like either of those. But at least some sort of "here's things to go over" checklist might not be a bad idea.
    • Like x 1
  7. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    I'm sorry that I did not appreciate all the work Seebs and Bel do behind the scenes. I'm sorry that I had a freakout at you. I was responding negatively to what felt like condescension. I acknowledge that the mods did what they could. I think what I wanted was the more personal response of 'this thing happened, and this is not okay in our community, and we're doing stuff behind the scenes to keep it as under control as we can on our end'.

    But I know that's not everyone's communication style, so I shouldn't have expected that to magically appear.

    I hope you can forgive me for freaking out and being rude.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 13
  8. witchknights

    witchknights 27 Bold Enchanter Defends The Fearful

    I think that, in situations like these, making people feel better is a goal that really justifies the cost. It can prevent longer discussions, like this discussion, which are huge spoon drains and time sinks even for people who weren't involved in the initial clusterfuck. I understand that performative concern isn't your favorite thing, but it's not entirely worthless.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 13
  9. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    @a tiny mushroom you're cool, and we're trying to do better too, thank you very much for your kind understanding.
    • Like x 5
  10. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Anecdata: I am pretty hard to upset. I didn't get very upset yesterday. I think this may be in part because so many people were so fast to pump the brakes on my Rage Reflex that they overwhelmed the part of me that wanted to go and puke and then get really mad at a stranger in an Internet fight. So, that's potentially another horrible cluster B meltdown avoided.

    Seconding @witchknights, basically. Preemptive measures can do a lot of good.
    • Like x 6
  11. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    I understand if you're not cool with it, but if you want a more touchy-feely mod, I'd be happy to step up. I promise I'm reasonable when I'm not having a freakout >.>;
    • Like x 3
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I was sort of a jerk to you, you were maybe a little rude, I don't know what else I should have expected. Sorry.
    • Like x 5
  13. Secret Squirrel

    Secret Squirrel certainly something

    So, posting this here because it's been discussed here. When I made these posts in Wild's thread:

    I didn't mean "should be done" to imply I thought things hadn't been done or were not in the works of getting done. I meant that I thought the actions I knew were either taken or planned to be taken were appropriate/fitting, especially given my understanding of @Beldaran's modly powers. (Whether they were 'sufficient' I have no idea, but I haven't spent much time thinking about it.)

    Bel, if these posts contributed to you feeling like people were ignoring your efforts, I am sorry. I thought it was pretty obvious you were spending a lot of time and effort corralling Wild. Had I realized you felt so ignored or overlooked, I would have made myself clearer.
    • Like x 4
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So sometimes when people ask for a thing, I look exactly at the specific thing they say, rather than why they might be saying it.
    • Like x 1
  15. Petra

    Petra space case

    Yes, I feel like a good deal of the problems in the past few days involving you specifically have been miscommunication based, especially when people are getting too emotionally worked up to know how to explain the thing to you. Which they can't help!
    • Like x 2
  16. Xavius Emeritus

    Xavius Emeritus Suit Monkey

    This thread is ongoing and seems to relate both to the Alix-related issues and the thread yesterday, so I wanted to pop in and offer my apologies. I've given them in two other places so far but I don't think I've had a public addressment. I'm going to give one for the sake of transparency.

    I got appointed with modship and then immediately after hit with a bout of the flu and a rough work-week. These are things anyone has to deal with and while I'll claim them as contributions for my negligence, they are not excuses that absolve me of all responsibility.

    I had free time last night and probably could have engaged with this thread and been more involved with the difficulties that happened with the tail end of the anon thread yesterday. Originally, the only action that I took when things unfurled was hasty deletion of offending comments in affected vent threads and alerting those with authority to handle the situation. Seebs had to be contacted because at the time he was the only one with queue powers. Seebs put the anon on very strict moderation and then left for a while. I had to go too, since I was at work, and a very tired Beldaran was left to moderate the anon for several hours.

    When I got off work, I was drained, and I chose to give a small showing of support in the anon thread for the community and offer a few lighthearted jokes, then bowed out of duties when discussion started anew. From my perspective at the time, Seebs could handle himself and have his own discussions, and I trust Seebs implicitly, so I thought things were under control and bowed out, acceding to the beating feeling in my head.

    My mistake was in failing to account for the spoonlessness of everyone involved. Even if I had, I don't know if I could have done much myself to make things better, but I wish I'd stuck around to try and help. I'm not saying this to stick the load entirely on my shoulders, but because I'm getting to a point.

    At this point in time the forum has been under constant stress - we've dealt with nearly daily far-reaching upsets in one form or another. A significant portion of the userbase has been stung by situations happening lately or has scenarios similar enough that the echoing ripples have caused these old wounds to reignite. My mixed metaphor got lost somewhere in there, but what I'm trying to say is that everyone involved right now is very tired, and I think some things are being lost in translation without copious amounts of help being slung back and forth.

    Seebs wants to ensure that the needs of everyone are being met. I think we all know that about him. If there is a faint glimmer of hope that a person may be able to function within Kintsugi's society then he likes to bring up his microscope and Zoom-Enhance that shit. Because of the way he is, he tends to focus on the person receiving the least amount of representation and sympathy in a situation and try to be their vanguard and interpreter while critiquing others. Because the person on the receiving end of the criticism has likely received no end of deconstructions to their platform, Seebs likes to reconstruct the platform - a platform that tends to be fractured and poorly represented by meltdown states or antagonistic behavior. Oftentimes, this results in the outward appearances, I think, that Seebs does not care about the forum at large, but I consider it to be the opposite. I think that looking at people in the midst of meltdowns and going "Yeah, but why" is a trait that I consider enviable.

    At the risk of being a mind reader, I'm going to interpret Seebs here. He has spoons like the rest of us and tends to trust in the compassion of the community to provide for the needs of people who've been hurt. This has proven repeatedly not to be the case, but like Beldaran has said earlier in the thread, providing a shoulder to cry on and emotional support is not Seebs' strong point. Seebs' strong point is in analytical breakdowns and text-walls of thought. I think, historically, providing rationale to why it's okay or not okay for a thing to be one way has been how his tumblr works. He's not the guy to ask for a shoulder to cry on, he's the guy to ask for an in-depth explanation as to why abuse is the way abuse is.

    On a tumblr where he only has to focus on one side of the argument, I think that works quite well, but when it's a userbase, he gravitates towards the guy fighting a war alone because he trusts that the remainder of the forum will have medics available.

    These are only my observations on Seebs as largely an outsider and I hope they are fair representations.

    To the forum as a whole, I offer this, publicly: I am incredibly sorry things turned out the way they did yesterday - not just for the lack of visible mod response, but for the lack of visible consolations. I was trying to talk to people where I could, but had to step out before I got to nearly as many as I would have liked because I was worn down.

    Were it not for universal spoon loss I think things could have turned out much better, and I'm sorry for any part my stepping away may have contributed to. I wholeheartedly believe in the goodwill of people here and that trust and a solid back and forth can still be, and in fact is being, achieved, but looking at the arguments, I want to offer my advocacy for a few things.

    I want to point out the existence of this thread, courtesy of @Mala. I love this idea. Even if this forum is not, by necessity, always going to be a safe space, I think it's in the best interests of everyone that more than just keeping it that way, we remember the people who can help when it isn't. Remember who you can go to, who's volunteered, to be a shoulder to cry on.

    If you have difficulties with moderation staff and are comfortable with talking things over, you are always welcome to leave a PM. If you want to reach me outside of the forum, personally, my Skype is open. If you want there to be a more public record, It's So Meta threads aren't just the property of staff members - you're free to make one, seriously, and I promise that we'll respond when we have the spoons. Beyond this, there are always mediators available for any conversation - if you request a mutual one, chances are people will be able to provide it.

    As a closing note: For everything that has happened lately, I am sorry, and I'm not just sorry for the formal reasons stated here, I'm sorry you've had to go through it. I don't dislike a single person on this board that I've spoken to, and there are plenty more people I've never said a word to whose posts I've seen that I feel sympathy for as well, but don't want to be that awkward guy who walks in uninvited when there's comfort being given to be like "AND XAVIUSBERG FEELS FOR YOU TOO."

    I sincerely hope any of this helps some people feel a little better.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 25
  17. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Here's a divide that happens that isn't helping because a middle ground would be most useful.

    When a lot of people are upset many of them seem to want to look to the mods as counselors, therapists, parents, or various other adult in charge type positions. (Which one will vary by upset person, of course.)

    When the mods are upset, we seem to tend to view ourselves as service industry workers, unpaid ones at that.

    So you've got really upset people looking for reassurance and guidance regardless of how they are treating the people in charge, and you've got mods feeling the "you were rude to me so now you get no hotdog" meme in their soul.

    It's a total mismatch of expectations, it's hurting lots of people all around, and somewhere in the middle is where we need to be. A place where people can have reasonable expectations met and mods can have reasonable boundaries respected.

    /2 cents
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 8
  18. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    I was talking about my specific suggestions!

    I'm not sure why going off script would be a problem. The way I was thinking of it, the script is there so you don't have to think of a new thing to say with every individual incident, but you can if and when it's necessary. It's there for both saving time and helping you make sure you cover your bases, when those bases are relevant. I guess someone might conceivably object, but I figure it's okay to tell them you've got to be flexible with the situation.

    I also don't understand why lying would ever be necessary under the general framework I talked about, since it's all about acknowledgement. What am I missing?
    • Like x 3
  19. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    Thank you for apologizing for the lack of public mod representation. I believe many users will appreciate it.

    I am, admittedly, curious if any staff members aside from yourself have extended their condolences to Michi?
    • Like x 2
  20. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    Staff members specifically for counseling. Seebs may have not have meant it that literally, but I am latching onto it. It is a great solution that resolves the few staff members of unwanted emotional debt. I do believe you're slightly out of line to compare actually hurt users and comforting them to a meme, but that's beside the point.
    • Like x 2
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