Lemme Tell You About Ibby

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Xavius Emeritus

    Xavius Emeritus Suit Monkey

    Right now it's Beldaran's birthday, Jack is away, Snitch is asleep, I'm sick, and Seebs is low on spoons, so if the thread's made, my only concern is that the immediate staff response is going to be very light and the posts'll explode to the point that it might be difficult for us to keep up with the flow of things.

    I obviously can't stop anyone from making a thread and if you guys want to then I'm all for it, but if you do I'd like to request somebody summarize points made so it's more accessible when staff review it to figure out community opinion.

    Edit: To clarify, my plan right now is to put the thread up tomorrow because I think I'm in the ending stages of my flu, but if it happens sooner that's cool.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 8
  2. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    This will be my last post here.
    I hope that the empathy/sympathy squad idea will help others in the future. I know personally from my point of view, I'm someone that needs validation/reassurance from authority figures, and seebs is that figure here on the forum.

    Honestly, I kinda feel let down. I feel like with a lot of what seebs has said, that I somehow deserved how I was treated by Alix. Also, that nothing was done to mitigate the constant insulting the anon from yesterday kept doing in the thread despite the fact I never insulted them.
    I was too scared too since they had the upperhand on releasing information on me.

    To someone like seebs, this may not be as severe a situation, but when I was 18, someone released nudes of me as well as my contact info and location onto /b/ and I was harrassed and threatened. It was terrifying. Hence why these things were so serious to me.

    Like I said before, I'm leaving the forum. I don't feel safe here. I'm deleting as much info as I'm able to. I only ask that my name be changed to something random, just to take away the identity.

    Lastly, @seebs I spoke up multiple times as well as others had, because you never addressed me directly about what was going on. It really hurts me that I was consistently ignored.
    • Like x 11
  3. devian

    devian Well-Known Member

    @Xavius That is totally fair! I mostly asked because I was originally thinking of it as just an extension of the current discussion, but then you mentioned the thing about people being drained and I thought this was a fair point.

    I'd just as soon wait myself, as I'm not having the best words day today and I don't think I'd articulate my thoughts very well :psyduck:
    • Like x 1
  4. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    @Xavius jsyk, you're currently my favorite mod (a position which is arbitrary and capable of being changed with food :p ). In all seriousness, I really appreciate your responses so far in this thread

    @Beldaran I also appreciate your communication during the blowups even if I haven't said so before now!
    • Like x 3
  5. Hobo


    Alright, then I'm going to quote some shit from the other thread because they're very relevant to how I'm interpreting this one (the lattermost quote happened 15mins before you posted this thread, so it seems unlikely that your opinion changed significantly between then and... well, when this thread was first posted).

    This was a response to Grim, who really definitely isn't one of the three people mentioned by you and also has actually by most accounts been not really talking about Alix, to clarify.
    ALRIGHT, so the relevance of these quotes is for me to try and explain why people have been interpreting your posts as being about the whole, not just a few people. I'm going to italicise the offending comments in each quote and then explain the issue with them below.

    Quote 1 (or 2, I guess if you want to count the one I'm actually responding to): Talking about people who jumped to that conclusion. This is entirely too vague (and honestly, being vague is 99% of the problem with these posts), and basically sets the tone that you're blaming everyone who suspected it was Alix, which was... probably the majority of people who know about this drama, rather than specifically those who had namedropped Alix or the people you accuse later of prodding them. FTR, the evidence was not significantly contrary. Everything matched Alix except the method in which it was done, which might've been enough to convince you and me that it wasn't them, but to act like everyone else thinking it wasn't enough were completely unreasonable and their suspicions were 100% unreasonable and make no sense is something that I think makes no sense. Especially as opinions changed the longer the lulz trolling went on.

    Quote 2: This one should be obvious why it was taken as accusing more people of having Maya's opinions, because it refers to several people and uses Maya's quote to describe what they were doing. Following that, the comments of egging on and dogpiling seem to be suggesting that the "bunch" of people mentioned include anyone who took part in the threads about Alix, vent or otherwise, since it's hard to truly dogpile with only a few people. The last statement about declaring that it is Alix... a more literal reading would suggest that it's only people who said the words, but in conjunction with the previous post I quoted, it sounds more like metaphorical declarations, aka thinking that it was Alix.

    Quote 3: All of this is a problem because of who you're responding to. You're by definition including Grim, someone who is a complete outsider to this vent thread drama, as holding the opinion that Alix Is Very Bad And Cannot Be Listened To. This comment doesn't make much sense as a response to what Grim said unless you're explicitly including them as someone who holds Maya's opinion, and if you're including them, why not the rest of the people-who-are-mad-at-Alix? It reinforces the interpretations of the previous posts, that they're far more far reaching in terms of who is being called out.

    Quote 4: So this was in response to my comment about why people suspecting the troll was Alix was reasonable, even if they ended up being wrong. And what you seem to be saying is that it's literally impossible to see Alix as the perpetrator if you don't deny their basic humanity and think they're all bad all the time.

    Well, besides basically being the final nail in the coffin in terms of reading your posts as being about basically everyone who was mad-at-Alix (because you kind of explicitly state it here, that anyone who thinks it was Alix agrees with Maya's assessment of their character), it's also an example of just... how you get an idea in your head that relies on some serious bad faith interpretation of a situation and just sit on it and either can't or won't see it any other way, even with explicit explanations of other people's motivations and Occam's Razor being a thing. And seemingly believing that people are holding their initial interpretations for long after they actually are, AFTER evidence has come out proving them wrong.

    Like, this seems to be an issue for you with stressful (or at least dramatic) situations. It's why I brought up the Rhett-is-abusing-Ray theory that you held for so long, despite the evidence not really being there and requiring a lot of complex theorising in order to make work... and you insisted it was impossible to see it any other way. You've also done it with Wax. In this case, it should be relatively easy to see why someone would think it was Alix without thinking they're Bad4Life and irredeemable, in the same way no one really saw things the way you did with Rhett and Ray way back when.

    Like, to use a silly comparison... Lady Pineapple has 5 enemies, Sour Apple, Egg, Cinnamon Roll, Salt and Ham. Lady Pineapple has a problem with murdering her enemies! One by one, Sour Apple, Egg, Cinnamon Roll and Salt have been murdered in the same way, always with a sledgehammer. Lady Pineapple has admitted to murdering these people, and alternates between showing remorse and feeling 100% justified in murdering those sonsabitches. A day after Salt was murdered by Lady Pineapple, her final enemy, Ham, shows up dead! But Ham was killed by poison.

    Now, even with the MO being different... that suspicion would turn immediately to Lady Pineapple really isn't unreasonable in the slightest. She has a habit of murdering, and hasn't really seemed to settle on 'murder is bad' as a thing given the inconsistency of her feelings about what she did. Obviously the difference in MO means that it's not clear cut and 100% guaranteed that Lady Pineapple did the deed, since she's been relatively consistent before (even though before one of the murders of her four enemies, she did use poison for a time)... but suspecting her, ESPECIALLY if you're the ghost of one of those people who have already been murdered, is pretty reasonable.

    As more evidence came to light that Lady Pineapple was (seemingly) framed, people stopped suspecting her. That's normal. Suspecting a serial murderer of murdering people she has reason to murder (in her mind) is normal and reasonable, and doesn't require thinking that they're inhuman and incapable of helping old ladies cross the street or doing any sort of good thing. Sure, her mental illness is the reason she starts swinging a sledgehammer around, but it's like what you were saying with the vent threads. If you (swung) it, you (swung) it. That can't be ignored. And being suspected of murdering when you've murdered in the past (the previous day, even) is one of the consequences of swinging sledgehammers around.

    Anyway, TL;DR version is that it did happen, you just didn't intend for your words to be taken that way. But taking them that way isn't the sign of a problem, it's a pretty usual assumption given the situation. Wrong, but not unreasonable.

    Alright, so understanding that it might hurt people is a thing people should be doing, I agree. But are you suggesting that people should be making actual changes to their behaviour, here? Like are you saying that emotional processing is fine and should continue the way it has been, but be aware that saying things will hurt people and acknowledge that, or are you saying that people need to be changing how they emotionally process things, like by not doing it or not doing it in public in order to prevent hurt feelings?

    What about my suggestion before, about you only getting involved with discussing threads after the fact (like a few days to a week out)? I mean, I feel like people aren't going to react to your threads positively just as a general thing when they're as vague as the first half of this thread was, but I also think that the timing is pretty atrocious and to let everyone take some time off to breathe and process their emotions before coming back to discuss it would really help to limit the really negative reactions your posts seem to generate.

    Also holy shit this got long, I'm sorry for the text bricks y'all. Been writing this shit for ages.

    Edit: Fixed some pronouns and spelling. What even is memory.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 17
  6. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    I really want to highlight this part because holy shit, I am consistently amazed by how people around here seem to think that nailing down policy while conflict is still hot is... possible. Or a good idea to try. I don't even like apologies to happen until at least the next day sometimes, depending on the severity of the situation, though apparently I'm weird that way.
    • Like x 13
  7. Mala

    Mala Well-Known Member

    I think it's because people hate conflict and want it done with ASAP. Of course fast doesn't mean good
    • Like x 7
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Thanks! That is super helpful.

    I will totally concede that I was not taking time to explain or articulate things as much as I should have, because I was pretty mad to begin with about some of these things and not feeling like spending the extra effort to be careful, but I guess that does sort of explain the conclusions people reached, up to a point.

    I don't think I'm quite saying either of those. I'm mostly saying "be aware of the thing". And, in particular, that I am super done with the idea that people who get hurt by things said about them are at fault for reading those things. Past that... People gotta make their own choices, and make them as best they can, but understand what the choice is. If you gotta say the thing, say it. Just don't say it and then demand that people act like you didn't.

    I also think it's really important to recognize that the explosive meltdowns are not all that fundamentally different a thing from "talking shit about someone in a vent thread because you're too mad not to". It's all emotional processing that has some significant risk of hurting people, and where sometimes that might even be sorta the point at the time when it's being said. And if people can get more aware of the similarities between the things, and recognize that "loss of control" isn't a thing that only some people have and other people are immune to, I think things might improve a bit.

    People get super upset if I don't respond quickly. I might be able to do some sort of balancing act with just mentioning that I might say a thing later, but... I dunno.

    I also think that, on the whole, I get better results from trying to get things aired when they're happening, even though it's distressing, than I do with trying to get people to articulate later what they were upset about. People can be ashamed of their anger later, and then they won't talk about it... but they'll still get angry over the same things.
    • Like x 1
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I have been on forums where people make Actual Rules during conflicts, and HOLY SHIT NO.
    • Like x 4
  10. Southe-lands

    Southe-lands A Cliff in Front, a Wolf Behind.

    That is... actually a very good point. Policy should be nailed down when everyone is thinking clearly and not hurt or angry.
    • Like x 2
  11. budgie

    budgie not actually a bird

    I think a major problem with taking that attitude in this particular forum is that there are a lot of people who've dealt with abusive and otherwise messed up situations, and focusing on what Person A did wrong while handwaving Other Person's misdeeds seems to be a fairly common thing for abusers to do. So some people will have a visceral reaction of "Seebs condemns my actions but not Other Person's actions, therefore Seebs thinks Other Person's actions are ok and I am the sole problem here" and go into defence mode. I'm really not familiar with cluster B personality disorders, but from what I've seen that's the sort of thing that could set off a major emotional tailspin.

    So since you want Kintsugi to be a place that can help people get better, I think explicitly stating that you agree that Other Person is out of line will help some people avoid a meltdown.
    • Like x 7
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    That's quite possible, but it's also worth noticing that I can do that all I want and still get exactly the same, or escalated, complaints about how I didn't do it enough. I think I'm on round four or five of complaints about a specific thing that I've repeatedly stated was out of line, and it's still going, because it turns out that actually saying that doesn't really change things all that much. But it's a good point, there's a lot of people with relevant trauma, so.
  13. budgie

    budgie not actually a bird

    Yeah, it was intended more as something to keep in mind for future problems.

    It'd probably also be a good idea to say "I am not condoning X's actions" at the start of the post, to make it less likely that someone would miss it/react to your post before reaching the end.
    • Like x 1
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yeah, good point.

    but the real question is, can i finally take that vacation without things exploding in fire? because if necessary i will totally just turn the board off for a few days.
    • Like x 3
  15. Petra

    Petra space case

    Oh god, please don't.
  16. Mala

    Mala Well-Known Member

    Please go take your vacation. You probably need it even more now. We'll try to behave for Beldaran, Xavius and Snitch
    • Like x 6
  17. Xavius Emeritus

    Xavius Emeritus Suit Monkey

    Taking the all-lowercase as a joke. That's the same way I code my jokes.

    Take the break, yo. Us mods can handle things for a few days. Probably.
    • Like x 3
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Sort of a joke, but there's a fundamental difficulty with the way things are structured and I may have to think about the thing.
  19. Xavius Emeritus

    Xavius Emeritus Suit Monkey

    In my honest opinion, the best thing you could do to maintain stability for a few days of absence would be to turn account approval on (which I think it already is) so we don't risk new anons for a few days and hand Beldaran (at the very least if you aren't sure about giving it to me or Snitch) the ability to appoint people to the moderation queue if at all possible should we have another nuclear incident like our anon friend. That'd keep us from most immediate emergency-level crises, so we wouldn't have to call you back from break.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
    • Like x 9
  20. Hobo


    Glad it could help a bit! I'd hate to think my ridiculous analogy went to waste, hahaha.

    I think that's fair. I'm not really sure I see that happening much at this point, but I agree with the assessment that saying a thing that hurts someone is still hurting someone, regardless of motivation or whether you think they deserve to feel that way and that dealing with the fallout of that is something you've got to accept. This goes for everyone, not just the person who started it, so to speak.

    That said, I'm not really sure I agree with this assessment of explosive meltdowns = not all that different from talking shit because you're mad. Like, I get what you're saying about emotional processing and I agree that they both come from similar places... but there are still going to be degrees of how inappropriate or how hurtful a thing is. Obviously not everyone has the same thresholds, but I'd argue most people see suicide baiting as far worse than saying awful shit about people. Like... maybe this is just being pedantic, but while seeing these sorts of things as coming from similar places might help in understanding it a bit more, there's still going to be a difference in how people feel about a murder vs breaking someones legs vs punching someone in the face vs giving them the finger, even if they're all motivated by a shitload of anger, you know?

    Yeah, that's fair. Personally, my suggestion was purely in the sense of like... this thread, for example, where it's not really about the current drama and seemed to be more of a policy discussion, but came right on the heels of the most current drama. I feel like threads like this can wait awhile before they get brought up, because they're not about the situation at hand and seem much more like policy discussions. I feel like this sort of thing wasn't necessary to like... collect the current opinions of angry people, and the quick responses wanted are more in the sense of 'what are you doing about this,' rather than other issues you've noticed. Usually, other issues aren't super urgent, and I have my doubts that the anger generated by these sorts of threads (even if it is primarily directed at you) is helpful for the people they're primarily about. At least, they definitely didn't seem to be for BPD Anon. But I'd imagine you're a better judge there.

    I think the issue with you continuing to get shit for not doing enough is partially a 'disagrees with your policy on banning' thing which obviously isn't going to change, but is probably also motivated by the framing of your responses to the drama threads that come up. Like... your first response in the Wild thread was to call Khan out for assuming it was Alix, which, while accurate and something people need to be made aware of, kind of sets the tone for how people are going to read the rest of your responses. It basically communicates that your primary concern in this situation is Alix, doesn't communicate that things are being done to deal with the troll behind the scenes (I know Bel did, but I'm not 100% sure about the timing of when she first mentioned it, it may have been after this point), and doesn't communicate any concern or support of the people who were targeted by the troll. The fact that the next few posts you made were all along the same lines (defending Alix) continues to communicate that your interest is 100% on Alix's feelings, and sort of solidifies the idea that you don't care about these other issues. I think that's why when you do end up saying that you're doing stuff with permissions and doing your admin thing, as well as saying 'obviously this thing that happened is bad and no one deserved it,' it almost comes off as like... covering your arse, basically? Less that you did it or actually think that, and more 'damn people are irrationally mad at me about this, I GUESS I should say these things, UGH'?

    Basically, I feel like the script thing would help when you actually need to step foot into the drama threads for crowd control or correcting wrong assumptions or what have you, even if it's literally just a couple sentences. Reframing your statements so that 'I'm doing the admin thing, we are aware of the situation and handling it', and 'what's happening to all the people targeted is bullshit'/what budgie said (which is something you believe, judging by previous statements, and I don't think requires any real empathy to say) come first, before discussing other issues, will probably do a lot to help with how you're perceived when entering those threads.

    Wow I sure do love making stupid big posts.
    • Like x 18
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