Lemme Tell You About Ibby

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Hobo

    Hobo HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA

    My general thought is that while a fire is going on, seebs should stick to doing his admin shit in the background, and either not engage in threads (since this has the consistent effect of fanning the flames for various reasons), or just do some sort of mod announcement like 'yes, things are being done about this.' There doesn't have to be any performative empathy for the latter, just something saying that it's not being ignored (because it isn't). Then, depending on how urgent he sees the issues he wants to discuss, can either delegate the discussion of them to another mod if it's like... something that has to happen right as the fire is burning... which shouldn't be too common... or wait until the dust has settled before bringing them up himself. Maybe like a week? I think the latter would help a lot since it gives everyone more time to really suss out what's been going on and get the full story (something that's been an issue for a few people this time around, including seebs himself iirc), and has the added benefit of not having to deal with the heightened emotions that come with having a discussion on the sorts of topics seebs likes to bring up immediately following suicide baiting and threats being thrown around the forum willy nilly.

    Edit: Just so it's clear, this is in response to Bel's comment about 'how do we work with that' re: dropping the ball.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 11
  2. keltka

    keltka the green and brown one

    Uhm: thought, based on what Beldaran said about seebs ticking things off a checklist, and combined with thought about what seebs has said about not noticing/thinking they have any special social...er, weight? currency?

    maybe when it comes to things like this, they see support for the person who's been harmed as +1 standard kintsugi user every time someone's like "that fucking sucks man" or "I got your back bro".
    and maybe when it comes to them throwing their hat in the ring and talking about bearbaiting they see that as...maybe not +1 standard kintsugi user, but not that much more than that? and therefore might not SEE why their coming down on the side of one user comes off as Really Taking Sides

    and I think we really have to take into account what Bel said, like, yeah, I still think it'd be great if there was some kind of, "okay, shit went down, we do care about you" response, but yeah, maybe we should shift the focus away from the mods and admins for providing that, especially if they're in a place that they can't, for whatever reason?
    not gonna deny that it does kinda suck to know that maybe they can't be there, because yes, I'll admit it, hugs from admins and mods do make me feel special, but we've got a whole community of nerds who are willing to throw cute pictures and gifs and stories someone's way when shit goes to hell, so maybe we can try from that?

    oh god I edited this post so many times y'all please don't hate me I just wanna see things get easier and better for everyone
     
    • Like x 17
  3. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    seebs i'd like an apology from you for using my trauma response to what alix was doing as your "evidence" that people are poking her and we're the big bad baddies in the situation.

    you say you dont want to cut out the cluster b folks for being symptomatic but hello hi. we've never talked really but im a cluster b folk that you are now actively trying to drive off the forum for, again, having a trauma response to behaviors that actively caused the development of that cluster b disorder. you would have known this had you read any other page of my vent, but instead you chose to cherry pick the not so pretty bits and use it against the entire community, and my friends, that WE'RE the problem.

    also, i dont know if you noticed, but a lot of alix's meltdowns seemed to be tied to her friends coming under fire for their own behavior, their own shitty actions, etc. it is not poking alix to rightfully vent about and get mad at and critisise her friends, which is what caused this most recent blowup. i have most of alix's acquaintances on ignore, but it might worth asking them if a) they want alix defending them like this, b) if they think being vagued about and disliked is a personal attack on alix especially, and c) if we should have to be scared of disliking, disagreeing, or critisising them for fear of alix telling us to kill ourselves.

    but mostly i'd just like a fucking apology for, again, using my traumatized response to this against the entire community. use it against me all you want, im used to it, but dont use it as ammo against my friends
     
    • Like x 9
  4. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    Calling what people are asking for 'sympathy ass pats' is unnecessarily snide and dismissive.

    The main things that people seem to need from an initial mod response aren't complicated - they need acknowledgement of what happened, acknowledgement of harm caused and who it was caused to, and acknowledgement that it will be addressed (if it's something that gets addressed). They need it from a mod because mods are essentially forum bosses. Like it or not, they are authority and will be seen as such, and they guide the tone and atmosphere of the forum.

    In my experience, a lot of the upset people have over the way things are handled wrt acknowledgement of shit going down and harm caused could be soothed to a large extent by a response script meant to be deployed at the onset of mods dealing with the shit that's gone down. A super personalized response isn't required for absolutely everything and as we've seen lately, sometimes just muddies the waters even worse. The purpose of a response script is that it ensures you cover these points in an efficient, crystal clear way. And they work pretty well, because people generally do not give two shits if you have a ~unique~ phrasing in an initial response, they just want to know that they're heard.

    @seebs @Beldaran if you're interested in my thoughts in a sample response script, I'll explain further.
     
    • Like x 30
  5. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    Also, for pity's fuckin' sake, @seebs when you have problems with how a particular person responded to something, address them directly and talk about exactly what they did. I've been following all of this and 75% of the time I can't make heads or tails of what you're going on about, and I can tell that's a huge part of the frustration a lot of people involved in this are feeling. I feel like you're assuming we can figure out your thought processes better than anyone short of your spouse or an actual mindreader can. Explain things to us like we're five years old.

    (Also consider cooling it on the assuming what people are feeling and ask them. I think that's also a big contributing factor to people's frustration - I say that because that's one of my big mistakes when I deal with people and shit goes badly, because when it happens it goes down a lot like this.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 34
  6. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    coughs
     
    • Like x 2
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    No, because that never happened.

    Demonizing is going on. I'm not saying every single person is demonizing all the time. I'm saying there is demonizing, and that several people are ready to jump to conclusions that make no sense.

    The specific people I have seen doing this, off the top of my head, would be leo, Maya, and Vivec. There are other people who have at least somewhat participated. I will also state that I've seen multiple other people complaining that Leo is talking shit about them, and that in at least some cases I had enough information to confirm that the claims Leo was making about their behavior were false.

    And I should clarify, I don't think the motive in any of this is malice. But it doesn't matter whether you're bear-baiting because it's funny or because you can't figure out why the bear is always mad, from the bear's perspective.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    oh my god suddenly this has turned into "ignore leo" to "leo is spreading lies"

    give me an example please!
     
    • Like x 2
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    To clarify: I don't think that is generally, or even often, the case. It might be occasionally, I don't know, but I don't think it's the primary issue.

    But if you're that upset about Alix's behavior (which you have every right to be, because Alix is pretty fucking explosive), you can put people on ignore to stop being annoyed by them. The subaccount thing is, so far as I know, long fixed. It would not be that hard to avoid contact, and even if the avoidance wasn't 100% perfect, it would massively reduce harm.
     
  10. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This is a really good point. Part of the problem is I'm really bad at names so it's hard to keep them sorted.

    I am trying not to assume what people are feeling. The claim about people thinking they need to impress on Alix that Alix's behavior is wrong is a second-hand report from another person, not a speculation.
     
  11. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    if I'm actually on ignore and you've decided it's cool to call me a liar with zero defence and I can't say shit to defend myself

    You are an incredibly classy person, seebs.
     
    • Like x 3
  12. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    You need to all stop getting snippy, Seebs included. You're just working yourselves up into a frenzy again. I want one day without forum drama I have to de-escalate. One day.

    If you have questions, comments or concerns, PM me and I'll get started cleaning this mess up.
     
    • Like x 7
  13. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    I'm a little pissed I'm called a liar, sorry.
     
    • Like x 4
  14. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    That's reasonable. I'm trying to untangle everything. I'll see what I can do.
     
    • Like x 1
  15. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    Lol he's not going to take it back. I'm going to ask for evidence, and he'll never cough it up, just like with the demonizing alix thing.
     
    • Like x 1
  16. michinyo

    michinyo On that Dumb Bitch Juice diet

    This will sound very guilting. Oh well.
    I ended up hurting myself last night. While the stuff that happened the last couple days had been piling on, seebs/bel's reactions and lack of even contacting me about it, leaving me to feel like they don't even care about me, just made me feel like shit enough that I ended up doing something dumb.
    I'm probably going to leave the forum. I don't feel safe here anymore, or even wanted.
     
    • Like x 4
  17. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    I'm a little pissed at the way seebs cherry picks things to respond to
     
    • Like x 7
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    (responding slightly out of order for reasons)

    ... Okay that's a 100% fair cop.

    You're right. The only part of this I can criticize is that I didn't "choose to cherry pick", it's just that that was the one that was quoted in a post in the moderation queue. I didn't take the time to go read other things, and I should have.

    Okay, so. To clarify: I don't want you to leave the forum, or feel like you have to. I do want to work on finding ways to keep your trauma responses from being other people's trauma that they respond to, because the feedback loop is where things really go spectacularly wrong most of the time.

    I was definitely being unfair. But! I also think it's important to note that the post in question didn't say "this is purely a trauma response, not a thing I actually feel". And it's in the same general category of "how the fuck could you say that about anyone" that Alix's horrible meltdown shit is.

    The problem here is, I think, with the idea that this has to be a thing in which "one side" is found to be at fault. No, it's a huge clusterfuck where a whole bunch of people are doing shitty things, and all of you need to be working on it. Not just Alix.

    We don't need to ask (a), because neither they nor Alix want Alix defending them like this. No one wants it, it's a trauma response!

    And you have a point about the indirect-triggering, which is the thing that's been the biggest problem in trying to deal with Alix's meltdowns. Everyone else tends to blow up when they're attacked, so you can try to mitigate it relatively easily. Alix tends to blow up when, say, two friends start getting snippish, because "if everyone hates me they'll stop fighting".

    But there's also been a lot of posts that are specifically about Alix, and I think that it would make a lot of sense to try not to make those, or at least, to not act like it's somehow a sudden and unexpected outcome when Alix blows up about it.

    I was by no means using it "against the entire community". I was using it as a criticism specifically of "the small pool of people actively engaging with and talking about Alix". And I agree that it was unfair... But the thing is, on reflection, it's pretty fucking stupid for me to read those posts and not think "oh hey lookit that cluster B trauma", because it's pretty distinctive. So I should have picked that up.

    So, yeah, I misread that pretty badly, and I'm sorry. You deserve better.
     
    • Like x 7
  19. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    That makes sense - in which case it might be a good idea to make heavy use of multiquote, or even a text document. I know that's a lot more work than going off the top of your head, but I'm pretty sure it'd save a lot more work in the long run because then misunderstandings don't spiral out into endless arguments, you know?

    I really strongly recommend not relying on second-hand reports of third parties' feelings - or at least, double-checking with the people who are supposedly feeling the thing.

    (this reminds me that I have some things to say re: social pressure and the use thereof, but that can wait a while.)
     
    • Like x 13
  20. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This is actually a really good idea.

    Actually, you're partially right, but the big part is more fundamental. I tend to miss the thing where "complaining about A but not B implies not thinking B is wrong" to many people. I tend to just accept as a given that obviously we all agree that B is acting badly and therefore why would I say that?

    So for instance, I didn't think there was any serious question of whether sending michi a nasty PM implying knowing where she lives and stuff was out of line. So... Why would I talk about it? No one needs to be told that, it's obvious.

    If you assume I'm only discussing things I think are disputed facts, and not implying much past that, you'll generally get better results.
     
    • Like x 4
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