Lemme Tell You About Ibby

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    @leo Okay, I'm going to go off of things Seebs has said in the past.

    To Seebs, this is not equivalent to a lie. People say something that is false because they're misinformed or misinterpreting something or the evidence leads them to an incorrect conclusion, and that's not a lie. I will say that I have seen PMs Leo received, and I think there is some evidence there to say that the people he is saying things about (Cedar and Alix specifically) were doing something similar to the thing he is saying they were doing.

    Again, we're back at the start here. What defines shit-talking? If Leo is upset that his friends are getting hurt and he says "Joe punched my friends in the face, he's a fucking dick," is he talking shit?

    Seebs: What are the specific claims you're upset about, and what is the proof they are false?

    Also Seebs check your PMs with me before anyone digs themselves deeper. I can only work so fast. :-(
    • Like x 2
  2. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Some clarification:

    Me, in this example: "Joe, that bastard that punched me in the face, is standing around outside the 7-11 with a baseball bat. He's gonna hit someone! Watch out."
    Seebs, in this example: "That's not fair to Joe! He could be waiting for baseball practice to start."

    I would not describe my statement as shit-talking, but Seebs might. It would do you (plural) good to bear in mind the adage, "Once bitten, twice shy."
    • Like x 7
  3. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    This is a bad plan to have policy around. It requires each individual member to know this thing about you, even though there's no reason to believe any new member would have any way of knowing this, or that any given member around right now has read this thread and is going to remember this thing about you. If all forum members were your personal friends that'd be an understandable thing to expect us all to remember, but we're not.

    This is why I suggested a response script. Please strongly consider using a response script. It means no one has to rely on remembering anything about any given person.
    • Like x 23
  4. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    Two quick things. People don't just stop being annoyed (though hurt and/or afraid would be better adjectives for this situation, I think). The damage has already been done to these people. The feelings aren't gone, they're still being processed. Look at the space between ugh and mysterious stranger. People settled out (even if might have been lower resting levels of comfort and trust with Alix), but it took time. Considering the magnitude of the hurt, I think it's reasonable to expect some people will be processing them for quite a while. This goes back to the thing I was trying to say before, where I think you're trying to get people to stop taking shots at each other, and people are hearing 'stop talking about these fresh, raw, emotions, because it makes the person who hurt you uncomfortable.'

    And also on that same note, ghh. This is hard to words. 'If Alix upsets you, ignore them, and that way you won't be upset. And then you'll stop posting things that upset Alix. And then Alix will stop doing things that upset you.' Especially with very little visibility into the modly actions or your private talks with Alix, this feels like you're putting all the responsibility for stopping Alix's meltdowns... on the people Alix has hurt in their meltdowns. I get trying to cut off the feedback loop, and I know we don't have the full picture. But especially within the context of that lack of full picture, and especially given the way Alix has failed to do the ignore thing in the past, this really, really feels like more of the thing where it feels like you pick favorites that people have been trying to describe to you.

    Nobody here knows what is being said to Alix in private or what they're agreeing to, they're only seeing you pressuring the people Alix has hurt to stop responding to that hurt, because they're going to upset Alix.
    • Like x 24
  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    He's said things about the actions of users not involved in the drama.

    But you're quite right about "not equivalent to a lie". I have no idea whether or not Leo is lying. I merely know that Leo sometimes makes claims that I am pretty sure are incorrect.

    Here we run into "this spirals out into other users and other claims and so on" and I'm just going to say "I am not prepared to prove this to anyone else, because there are far too many users involved and privacy issues, but I am personally convinced of it. It's theoretically possible that I am convinced wrongly."
    • Like x 1
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This is a good point and I will think about it.
    • Like x 8
  7. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    have you considered, i don't know, DMing me to sort it out rather than taking what other people say?
    • Like x 2
  8. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    (Just in case you do have him on ignore.)
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 1
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator


    Okay, so I think I see one of the things.

    I was mostly not thinking "they're going to upset Alix" so much as "they're going to upset Alix in ways that predictably lead to further meltdowns and explosions and then it just keeps getting worse".

    I do not at all think that they bear any or all the responsibility for stopping meltdowns. But then, I don't have any kind of moral obligation to lock my doors to keep people out of my house, it's just that if people keep coming into my house, and I don't lock the doors, and I complain about them coming into my house, people are going to be pretty curious why I don't take an obvious step to mitigate the harm.

    I do think it was probably a mistake to take Alix off moderation queue due to a particularly busy thread; it would have been more effective to jump in and yell at people for making uncharitable assumptions about what Alix would say based on Alix's posts being delayed in mod queue.
    • Like x 3
  10. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    With moderation, please. I don't want anything to spiral. :-(
    • Like x 3
  11. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Whacks mod with a newspaper (with love in my heart!). Bad analogy.

    Locking your doors is minimal effort on your part, and it's not cathartic or helpful to you to leave them unlocked. You're not seeing the motive: people say negative things about Alix to process their emotions following Alix attacking them.
    • Like x 16
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, I've said this at least a few times in several different posts, but apparently not sufficiently clearly:

    I do not think the threatening message to Michi with personal information in it was appropriate, justified, called-for, or otherwise okay. I think it was seriously shitty behavior.
    • Like x 3
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Alix's "attacks" are also a kind of emotional processing.

    I'm aware that there is emotional processing involved all around. I don't think that makes the things not hurt people.

    ... and I should point out, it's not limited to Alix being hurt. We've had a long history on this forum of people saying negative stuff about people with BPD who hurt them, more than just Alix and Beeps, and throughout that time, there have always been a lot of people who weren't even peripherally involved in the drama, but who had similar BPD-ish or otherwise Cluster B-ish problems, who felt like these posts were criticisms of their behavior too, or proof that everyone will hate them if they ever screw up, or whatever else.

    Yes, it's emotional processing, and that sometimes needs to happen, but recognizing the harm it does is also important.
    • Like x 3
  14. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Okay, that's fair.

    Hmmm. Is there a meaningful difference between being snippy in one's own vent thread, and entering someone else's vent thread to snipe at them?
    • Like x 3
  15. Artemis

    Artemis i, an asexual moron

    I would like to state that this thread has, for the record, helped me understand what is going on with some of the arguments a bit better and I appreciate that this discussion, potentially hostile though it feels, is happening.
    • Like x 11
  16. thegrimsqueaker

    thegrimsqueaker 28 Moribunding Mouse Aggravates the Angry Assholes

    ok, so now every vent thread post about another person has to have in it a disclaimer saying "this is a trauma response" for you to not use it against them? bc I don't rly do vent threads, but even I can tell that making someone who's having a panic response due to trauma say this in every post or else risk an admin taking it out of context is counterproductive at best
    I'm actually rly uncomfortable w how you're both using @leo as an example of everything ppl are doing to hurt Alix and ignoring him completely. that's multiple lvls of not ok
    • Like x 8
  17. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    Also, some people have been using vagueing (as in, not explicitly naming people) for emotional processing, and that causes issues because some completely uninvolved people might see it and think it's about them.
    • Like x 1
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I would state that "entering someone else's thread" can't be sniping. Sniping is specifically "making attacks from a position that's hard to attack back to". So using your vent thread specifically to attack, as opposed to just for emotional processing (and that is totally a thing that people have done, but I am not asserting that anyone in this drama did it here) would be "sniping".

    That said, I think there's a lot of distinctions, but that neither is necessarily "better" or "worse" than the other.
  19. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Seebs apologized for taking Maya's post out of context and I think that's all we can do on that front.

    Until mind-reading happens, I don't think it's possible to draw a dividing line between "this person is attacking" and "this person is processing their emotions in, perhaps, an aggressive way."

    Can we agree that the protocol for feeling attacked by something someone said in a vent thread is confirming that it is about you, and then possibly making a TCHGB thread? Please? It's not a rule. It's a plan of action.
    • Like x 15
  20. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This gets back to: If you say a thing, you said it. I apologized to Maya because she's right, I did take it out of context without looking enough. But no one really disputes that Alix's bad behaviors are trauma responses, and yet, they get "used against" Alix all the time.

    There were a lot of things, but it was the angry kid telling me to "do my job" on a job I've been doing significantly longer than he's been alive that convinced me that this would be a case where ignoring someone completely was lossless compression of my input data.

    You can be mean, you can be a dumbass, you can insult me, but if you do all of them at once I'm probably gonna stop paying attention to you. Solution: Don't do that.

    Yes, I'm being sorta uncharitable. People have complained to me about leo's posts, linked me to threads, and so on, and you know what? I don't recall a single instance of seeing leo be charitable to someone he was disagreeing with or fighting with. I dunno, maybe I'll change my mind later, but so far, no one's given me any information that makes me think I'm missing things that are anything but more of the same bullshit.
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