Lemme Tell You About Ibby

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Mercury, speaking only for myself: I often get the impression that you're assuming that people aren't doing anything if it's not obviously publically visible, and that you assume this even when dealing with people who have previously discussed things they've done that were not immediately visible. I'm not sure if that's a kind of asshole, but it does make me think that you are a little hasty to condemn inaction when you don't actually have a specific reason to believe that what's in play is inaction rather than subtle action.
     
  2. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    I think it may be useful in general to tell the user base "We are addressing X" as a kind of wet floor sign, so that you don't have to air anyone's dirty laundry but users know the floor has been noticed and will soon be dry.
     
    • Like x 14
  3. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    My apologies, then. I was thinking about forum history when I made my posts, however, and the results I saw from that. If nothing seems to result after a thing happens, or a thing keeps happening again and again (and all this stuff has happened before in different permutations, both small and large), then I don't know what I'm supposed to think.
     
    • Like x 2
  4. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    I don't know what kind, all I saw was being told to do things I'd already been doing, again. And again and again. The exact same things were said by multiple people and no amount of me quoting where I did the thing has helped. I don't know what to do or how to discern between "I didn't see it" and "I was there the whole time and saw it, but why oh why is nothing being done?" Because both is happening I guess.
     
  5. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    iirc people were asking for more to be done, and you didn't address them, not even in stating you can't do so.
     
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    It's worth noting that, throughout all the forum history, most of the things people said "nothing was being done" about, things were being done, they just weren't things that were necessarily visible.

    And yes, sometimes things keep happening. That is the cost of trying to make a forum that includes people with severe mental illnesses; the mere fact that they're around and able to participate will sometimes result in things happening repeatedly, but there's no way to completely prevent those things without completely excluding the people. So, yeah. That happens. Not because "nothing" is done, but because what it is possible for mod powers to do without abandoning the forum's entire reason for existing is not enough to completely eliminate things.

    I do think it makes sense to put up wet floor signs, though.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I still have the open question:

    Can anyone identify a thing which I can do which would prevent a person who's threatened to take real-life actions against someone from taking those actions?

    Because I have pointed out, repeatedly, that the problem here is that it's not remotely obvious to me that there is any "more" to be done that would actually be useful.

    So, sometimes people want Something Done because "Something" done, whether or not it has any relevance or function, is an indicator that the problem is "being taken seriously".

    And that is just not going to happen, because I hate lies. I hate security theatre, I hate random wandering harm done to make it look like Something Is Happening. I hate fake measures taken just to provide warm fuzzies. And that is simply not on the table. I'm not going to do things that have no relevance to the problem to show that I care about the problem, because that doesn't actually show caring about the problem, to me. And I can understand that some people have some kind of weird brain where the presence of activity looks like caring, but I can't do that, and I find it upsetting enough that I'm disinclined to have it be done.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    i mean less of taking irl action, and keeping the person from doing further harm on the forum. i believe i stated:

    1. lock the thread
    2. stop account registration approval
    3. check in with the victims, those who had been fucking w/ the anon, to see if they are alright

    as for irl action, i am not sure, and i apologize if i ever stated i knew how to stop it.
     
    • Like x 2
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    okay, so, to clarify a thing or three:

    I do not have reason to believe that leo has been lying, in the sense of intentional falsehood. And I have a more general problem, which is that there's people who have had conflicts with leo and don't want to reopen those, but whose conflicts involved them feeling that leo mischaracterized them, or whatever... Meaning that I have information supporting a claim that leo has said things that were materially false, but that I have no permission from the relevant parties to give the examples. Which is to say, I think it's probably true, but unless those people feel like hashing it out with leo, I don't think it's going to be possible to demonstrate.
     
    • Like x 4
  10. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    *pinches bridge of nose.* Let me try again.

    I see things that happen over and over that have nothing to do with the mental illnesses people may have and a lot to do with ineffective communication. Lack of clarity has been a big problem. Lack of timely notification has been a big problem. Lack of understanding what people are actually having a problem with wrt to clear communication has been a big problem. I was pointing out that there's a method to adopt that can mitigate lack of clarity and lack of timely notification without adding to spoon drain.

    I'm super tired of me or anyone else trying to bring this up and getting derailed into 'but things are happening behind the scenes! but mental illnesses!' That's not even remotely the point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    • Like x 11
  11. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Some examples of stuff I typed rather quickly between doing the things I talked about doing in addition to other things.
    I try to keep people updated, its hard because there's a lot going in and I have to be mindful of privacy. I felt fine saying, in this case, that the troll's account was being limited for instance, but usually I'm not comfortable handing out that info. It's a balancing act.
     
    • Like x 9
  12. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    if anyone has a problem with me, DM me and sort it out. i don't exactly what to be spreading lies, as other people have done that same thing to me on this forum. not you, seebs.

    i am perfectly reasonable, and if we cannot reach an agreement on the proper course of action, i can bring in a mod and i will listen to them regardless of the consquences to me.
     
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I considered locking wildspyer's thread, and decided specifically not to, because it was pretty clear that wild would stay in that thread if encouraged to, which mitigated the harm from posting all over other places. Account registration was irrelevant; I checked out the incoming accounts, they were pretty clearly unrelated so far as I can tell. And checking in with people would be a thing anyone could do and that I'd be bad at, so, probably not a good choice for me.

    My point about IRL action is, people kept stressing that the message to michi was a threat of real-life harm, therefore More Must Be Done. But that's a non-sequitur unless there's some way the More being Done will impact the RL threat.
     
  14. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    people could be pinged into it, or a friend could direct the thread to them, leading more people to getting hurt. i don't believe others have to be responsible for other users' actions.

    at least you checked in on them. that's something.

    direct your mod team to do the same, or ping the victims and say you're unsure of what to say. people want to be known they're at least heard.

    people are going to want something to happen, regardless of it'll actually help or not. you are allowed to debate this, or explain your reasoning, rather than not bringing it up.
     
    • Like x 3
  15. Carrickfergus

    Carrickfergus abstractor of the quintessence

    Will someone please explain to me what a "trauma response" is?

    I see that it is a thing that happens regularly enough on this forum that one should be aware of the possibility and able to recognize it when it happens. I'd like to learn what it means in the context of this forum so I don't end up misunderstanding someone.

    Please DM me, I don't want to interrupt and derail what's going on here, but please post a reply saying that you volunteer as tribute teacher so multiple people don't end up having to take the trouble.

    Thank you. :)
     
  16. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    These would be good things to communicate directly in some part of the forum, because it makes plenty of logical sense! But unless someone is intimately familiar with the way you think, and has knowledge of where you are in the forum and what you're seeing, none of this is readily apparent from over here.
     
    • Like x 3
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I recognize that people could be pinged into the thread, but I think that's still less damage than having the user running around going into other threads. Basically, "localize the damage" is a pretty solid strategy.

    My point is: The decision to leave the thread open wasn't because I was lazy, it's because I've seen both strategies play out and I picked the one that does a lot less harm.

    Try to understand, I'm not an idiot, and I'm not new at forums. I have been moderating and running user communities for a long time now, like, >25 years. When I do something that seems surprising or counterintuitive, you may get better results if you assume that there's probably a reason, and if you don't see what it is, ask about that and see whether you think I'm making a mistake after you have some idea what I think I'm doing.
     
  18. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    You clearly put a lot of effort in! I'm sorry I didn't notice it like I should have.
     
    • Like x 4
  19. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I actually think "trauma response" is not really a derail, because it's central to a lot of the discussion here.

    Consider the stereotypical PTSD response of hearing sudden loud noises and having flashbacks. This isn't a considered choice someone makes, it's a traumatized brain taking over and Doing Emergency Things.

    We have a lot of people who have seriously bad responses to particular things which trigger them. Sometimes to fairly broad categories of things. And then they're in a state where they are not their usual calm rational self who makes considered decisions, they're just overloaded by experience and things that remind them of other things and are half reacting to those other things instead of their immediate context. And that means that they are likely reacting in a way that would make more sense if directed at, say, a long-term abuser... And that they aren't really going to be in control or exercising judgment. And it makes sense to treat this at least somewhat differently.
     
    • Like x 4
  20. leo

    leo Well-Known Member

    i never stated you were lazy, i figured it was the best course of action and still do. keeping it one open place is a problem, to me, and god knows as time goes on it can be drug back out into the light of day.

    that is not a response to anything else i said. are you considering telling your mod team to pass your sympathies along? for example, let's say user A is hurt by the lack of personal response-- is the best course of action to go, "things are happening behind the scenes, you need to stop assuming," or is it "i'm sorry you're in pain, what can i do to help?"
     
    • Like x 3
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