lol ayyyy

Discussion in 'General Advice' started by lvkz, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. lvkz

    lvkz Well-Known Karkat

    so i was directed here from a homestuck IRC i found on tumblr, and apparently this is a forum where people can talk about Heavy Shit? uhhhh. hello. I just got out of a 3 year campaign to get into a group and earn the approval of some people i admire that led to everyone thinking i'm a broken human being and one of the big stars of homestuck fandom never speaking to me again, AMA

    apparently the way i think is not sane because whenever i explain my thought process to people multiple people will comment that it's fucked up and offensive. like whenever i'll say that society has levels. like anonymous < named people on the internet... all kinds of stuff. it's not "real" or "right" but it exists and we have to work with it... like school and money... someone who has a desk job vs. someone who works at McDonalds. nobody likes it, everyone wishes it would go away but we still have to operate within it. this is kinda how i see fandom. you have the basic fans who just get excited about the content, might not have a great grasp on the canon, consume other ppl's fanworks etc. then on another level there's the sea of forgettable content creators who make mediocre art. then at the top there's people like shelby, chaz, etc. i don't even have to mention the username because they are famous...

    APPARENTLY THAT MAKES PEOPLE REALLY OFFENDED though i try to be humble about it and acknowledge that i'm in the bottom/middle tiers and people in the higher tiers have no reason to interact with me... it's not beneficial to them to get involved with some upstart who doesn't even create good content. if they support you it must be more of an image-making gesture to seem nice like. it's a business. artists run a business and some of us are partners... but most of us are consumers. it's marketing. you don't get the same amount of insider info as the partners. you're essentially being played and agreeing to it and liking it and everyone understands this so the structure can function

    "but artists are people too and people want friends" but at a certain point you can choose higher quality friends because when you're highly popular so many people are approaching you... you can be picky. so i'm just trying to be valuable enough to be one of those choice picks and... i'm not even that good at art, i'm not creative, i'm dependent on other people for ideas and motivation and etc. i'm working to be on that level or just... anyone on my level to recognize me

    people tell me all the time that's wrong and fucked up but it seems so obvious to me. it seems like when people say that doesn't exist they're just trying to keep it a secret. people can't really be so unaware of the social structure?

    i don't know
    i hope i don't get banned for being offensive

    ALSO... ALSO..... i'm a baby llmao. i just want to be surrounded by people and be friendly with people all the time. i need constant reassurance. i get really insecure if i don't have a squad lmao. i haven't had that in so long and its wearing on me. but i see myself as really basic and worthless and i'm not an asset to any group. i'm not even funny and i have problems expressing my love for the people around me cause rejection & feelng creepy,

    how to sell myself
    fit in
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  2. Petra

    Petra space case

    That does seem a bit... off. Just because someone doesn't create content in one fandom doesn't mean they're lower quality friends. People pick friends based on personality compatibility.
  3. kmoss

    kmoss whoops

    I feel like there's maybe a lot of different social structures that this one works in, too, though.
    Like, there's your value in, say, the economic structure (I, as a student, rank pretty low on this one.). And there's your value in fandom (I'm a lurker. A cheerful lurker. I'm not good enough at anything to really be the upper tiers, and I'm lazy enough that I'm probably never going to work that hard at it.)

    It might be that they were mad at you because they felt you were putting one social tier on a pedestal over the ones that we're "supposed" to value - like friendship tiers, or loyalty tiers, or what have you.

    I'm a really big fan of the theory that social structure is composed of millions of different tiers, but you can duck past a lot of these if you're higher on the "trustworthy loyal funny friend" tier with someone at the top of something else.

    Like, say Bill Gates has a friend of lower economic status (that's not hard) and friend is having troubles getting his kid into college. He talks to Bill, goes "man, i just don't know what to do, blah blah blah, friendship words, we sure had fun back in high school whatever", and the next day his kid's enrolled.

    Man, I'm pretty sure I lost the point I was trying to make. Whoops.

    Right! Uh, possibly the issue is just that you ended up placing more value on one social structure than on the social structures that help you maintain friendships.

    #Does that make sense at all? #screw it i'm posting it
  4. TwoBrokenMirrors

    TwoBrokenMirrors Merely a whitebait in the mayo of life

    Yeah, sure, there's layers. The trick is realising that the layers aren't tied to personal worth. Even if the people at the top are super skilled, they were still also bestowed with a fuckton of luck, and there will be highly skilled people who never get that luck or simply don't care enough for fame in the lower layers. There's nothing to say that the people on the top will be better friends to have- they're just people, after all, and there will be people you can't get along with at any level, including the top. You can suck up to them for second-hand fame and to try and get art and so on, but if there's no real friendship underneath it it's hollow, and painful, because you'll know there's nothing underneath and it'll feel fake.
    Rejection hurts, a lot. It hurts me so, so much still, avoidance of it is much more of a driving force in my life currently than I want it to be, but you get rejected more if you try and suck up and treat people as ladders to the top. Because they notice, and they don't generally like it very much. Believe it or not, that lame thing about being yourself is actually kind of true a lot of the time. Self-esteem issues mean you probably don't feel like the 'yourself' you have to offer is very good or useful, but believe it or not there totally is stuff you can offer that's worthwhile.
    Finding it can be a bitch. But it's worth it if you can. Then, if you want to try and approach famous people, you can do it in a friendlier and more equal manner, because you're not viewing them as somehow Intrinsically Better Than You.
    • Like x 1
  5. lvkz

    lvkz Well-Known Karkat

    @boyacrossthestreet YEAH, you're right, thanks for understanding because i feel like i'm the only one who sees it sometimes... and you're right that i'm probably putting/coming off as putting too much value on it. i think you made your point... Like, there are different scales to the value of relationships and the artificial social status aspect isn't always that important if you have a stronger position in some other aspect. I just worry cause like... as you gain that power of being well-known other aspects stop being as important and the little people are kinda SOL if they weren't with you before

    @Petra it's true, it's just getting to that place without seeming like a suck-up, status changes everything and new people might come off as social climbers
  6. albedo

    albedo metasperg

    Longer ramble to follow later, but for clarity:

    No, you're not likely to get banned, this is indeed a forum for talking about Heavy Stuff.

    (However, as you may have noted, a fairly large contingent of the forum is autistic, so literalism is appreciated!)
    • Like x 1
  7. lvkz

    lvkz Well-Known Karkat

    @TwoBrokenMirrors that's my problem cause i'm feeling people are putting more value on their status when like... even if i just see them as a cool person, instead of being able to focus on that i 'have' to ingratiate myself when i really wish i could approach them as an equal and have a natural & healthy interaction... but to not seem like a suck-up i should already be equal with them in all aspects or i don't really earn the right to be natural cause it's like who's this nobody lmao

    @albedo ohhh yeah i'll have to watch myself with that cause the way i speak can be really abstract... please let me know if there's anything i need to clarify

    edited b/c double post
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  8. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    Oooo! Okay, so I get you and I find this very interesting! Yes, yes there are tiers and classes and such, but the thing offending people is that just because you belong to a certain class/tier doesn't make you any less of a human being worthy of respect. And like @boyacrossthestreet was saying, you can be on different tiers in different aspects. So, when you say someone is amazing and worth more because they are a higher tier in this aspect and others in this aspect don't deserve respect, the philosophy transfers to other aspects. So it can be interpretted as they are not deserving of respect in other ways, and a lot of people are pretty low rungs in other parts of their lives, and they have to continuously prove to other people with similar thoughts that they are valuable. So it hits a nerve in a sense. Also, welcome! ^_^
  9. kmoss

    kmoss whoops

    It's kind of like that "power corrupts" deal.
    I feel as though people make the mistake, though, of using that to define only how people at the "top" of the heap react, because power can also corrupt when you don't have it. Like, earlier example, Bill Gates could be a dick bag about this power he has, but the friend could also be a dick bag about this power he has over Bill.

    I feel like confidence and self-esteem play a huge role in this. F'rinstance, I hear that I come off as someone with a fair amount of confidence, and when I interact with people, I know we're both equals because we're both people. I don't really try to even the playing field if the other person is having issues with whatever imbalance is happening, because I feel like doing that is condescending.

    @rorleuaisen makes a really good point out of respect. It doesn't matter what power tier you're on in anything, if you're respectful, people will return it - and if they don't, then why would I wanna hang out with someone who doesn't respect me (fuck, Aretha Franklin is in my head now).

    and a belated welcome, as well.
  10. TwoBrokenMirrors

    TwoBrokenMirrors Merely a whitebait in the mayo of life

    Yup, I getcha. I get the same thing. That'd be the self-esteem issues talking, and probably/possibly some depression. Really, though (and it's so easy to say this when talking to someone else, impossible when talking to myself!), you are equal to them, just by being a person. The self-esteem issues are telling you (and me) that you suck at art, you suck at creativity, this person you're trying to talk to obviously manages to pull beautiful, creative art out of their asshole every time they take a shit so how can you possibly compare- aaaand it's all bullshit. Purest, a-grade bullshit. Persuasive bullshit, but bullshit nevertheless. They worked their fucking ass off to get that skill in art, they have awful days when everything they think of is ripped off from somewhere else or the ideas won't come at all, and there's a fair chance that there are occasions where they wonder if they really deserve all this fame they have and half-expect that if they post a picture where one arm is sort of wonky everyone will leave them. Plus, you can almost certainly do something they can't, because nobody can do everything even if it seems like they can.
    I'm not expecting you to have some kind of epiphany because I'm saying all this, by the way. I still struggle regularly with feeling any kind of worthy even for the attentions of my friends who are in no way famous, even in fandom. But if you can get the idea in your head that the voices that tell you you're a piece of shit are lying, it might help a little to chip away at things.
    • Like x 3
  11. lvkz

    lvkz Well-Known Karkat

    RE: welcomes hey guys! I'm not good at describing myself so i usually skip intro posts on forums lol. @TwoBrokenMirrors it's a constant battle to keep my head right, but i like to talk to people & get different ideas because it keeps me balanced... we're all constantly working on improving ourselves. except y'know, when we're not... or when we think we're improving but really we're just fooling ourselves. that's what I end up doing when i leave myself alone with my brain lmao
  12. TwoBrokenMirrors

    TwoBrokenMirrors Merely a whitebait in the mayo of life

    You got a therapist or meds at all? Sounds like you need some outside help, heh. As for 'fooling ourselves' that we're improving- you probably are improving, but your angry brain weasels are worried that this means they'll have to go away, so they try and sabotage it. =P
    It's a good idea to talk to a lot of people. Just try not to assume that they're better than you, because it fucks y'up. You can drop me a message any time, if you like. If I take a while to reply, it won't be because of anything you did. It'll be time zones or my own brain weasels.
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    These social structures sort of exist, but only sort of. You don't have to work within them; you can ignore them, and many people mostly do. I completely lack whatever it is that lets people evaluate social status or worth or whatever, so I just... completely ignore it. I don't pay attention. I don't always remember who people are, I don't notice whether they have status or not, and it turns out to work just fine.

    It sounds to me like you've got a model of social interactions which is a little off-kilter. I dunno about "offensive" or whatever, but... I think you're placing a lot of weight on things that aren't necessarily at all universal.

    Thought experiment for you: Consider the fact that people can genuinely disagree on the relative ranks people have within a given social structure. How's that work? That works because the social ranks are perception and consensus, and there's not necessarily any one objectively-real answer.

    So, yeah, it's obvious that people work as though it exists, doesn't mean it's real the way rocks are.
    • Like x 3
  14. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    There´s a possibility that people are reading your opinions as enforcing this structure. Which brings me to another point. People may tend towards this structure but in things like fandom, there is no reason to just accept it. Letting one´s worth be defined by this sort of things is not a good idea, and tends to cause drama.

    Edit: By which i am not meaning to say you´re a bad person for falling into this trap I just want to point out that wanting to follow this structure is not an effective method of interacting.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  15. lvkz

    lvkz Well-Known Karkat

    @TwoBrokenMirrors i get meds through non-legit means & i've been through several therapists that weren't very good to me... i'm still working on getting effective help :\ it's rough but i have a job and plans to get myself help so... plus i've learned a lot about helping myself. i'm at the point where i have no reservations or illusions about what i need but the physical & financial barriers are always there. i'll admit right now, i fuck up a lot. i do horrible shit to others when i'm angry and do horrible shit to myself when i'm sad. i don't want to forgive myself but it's necessary for me to survive

    @seebs I go back & forth on that... like, the sum of everyone's perceptions vs. the individual perceptions of you & the person you're interacting with, which holds more weight? whatever is more effective in that situation, i suppose... for example a public statement vs. a private conversation. the public statement would be more conformative to the consensus while two people can interact within their perceptions of one another. i get so many feeds off of mega-empathy when i'm within a group it's easy for me to get way too into analyzing the way people see me & the way i should act. it turns into being manipulative sometimes
  16. TwoBrokenMirrors

    TwoBrokenMirrors Merely a whitebait in the mayo of life

    Sounds like you're in a really crappy situation, and I'm sorry for that. I'm glad you know what you need, though. And it's easy to do crappy things to others and yourself, it doesn't mean you're a lost cause. If you can forgive yourself, it might even help you not do them so much in future.
  17. Petra

    Petra space case

    Yeah, I don't think this is necessarily offensive, at least not to me, but it struck me as off in ways I couldn't articulate but other people have articulated by now.
  18. albedo

    albedo metasperg

    No worries, just wanted to let you know. :) It's not abstraction that's the problem, it's that non-autistic folks tend to have a lot of emotional/social subtext to their conversations that autistic folks tend to miss. Like this, for example, you might think that I was being condescending or telling you to stay out of the group because you don't belong, because I'm saying this. (Uh, hopefully not, though.) But I'm actually being literal; it sounded like you were unclear on the social norms of the forum, so I wanted to clarify, because data is useful. This is a particularly social-group-related issue, so clarity off the bat seemed useful.

    (Most folks here found this forum because they're followers of Seebs' on Tumblr, and I think the social norms here might be a little different than they are in most places, so I wanted to let you know because it sounds like you may not have that context. I'm also kind of worn out today so I may be Failing At Social. :T Sorry about that...)

    But anyway, nobody's going to yell at you for expressing your feelings here.

    The way you say "people can't really be that unaware" suggests that you believe people are deluded or lying for feeling as they do. This may be part of what's offending people, even if you're not saying it outright. In my experience, people really do form friendships based on loyalty (we've been friends for a while), or compatibility (we have fun together), at least as much as 'you make cool stuff and I admire you'. More to the point, our society strongly values loyalty and compatibility as the foundation for friendship, and 'I admire you because you do cool things' is much less valued.

    So when you say 'no, society doesn't work like that', you're saying 'I don't work like that', which means you Don't Act Like Society Wants You To, which is scary to most people. It implies to most people that your friendship can't be trusted, because it's based on a foundation they don't agree with, and that you may be a scary person, because what other social norms don't you agree with? Even if you aren't saying 'I'm a bigshot who only wants to be friends with other bigshots', defying social norms is scary.

    And when you say 'no, you don't work like that', because our society says 'good friendship is based on loyalty or compatibility, not admiration', you're saying they're a bad friend. For basically the same reasons.

    I don't think these things are true, but I think they're the main reason you're getting such strong negative reactions.

    Also, when you say you want people "at least on your level" to recognize you, it implies that you don't value the attention or friendship of people "below" your level, which is also likely to read badly to people. They may dislike it out of a sense of unfairness/rudeness, or because it implies that if you can "rise" in level, you'll dump your current friends. (Which, since we as a culture value loyalty, is bad.)

    It sure sounds like your problem is really self-esteem and worthiness, that you don't feel worthy of the friendship of others so you're trying to make it quantifiable. Because that makes you feel in control of the situation, and makes it less scary, I presume? 'If I can get 10,000 AWESOME PERSON POINTS, people will be sure to like me!' As others have mentioned, this sounds like depression, maybe also other stuff. The way you compare friendship to an economy is really interesting; I haven't seen people describe it that way before.
  19. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    Not sure how helpful this is, but in purely practical terms? There's immense value in fandom to people who only/mostly consume fanworks. Few people like to create in a vacuum, and it'll almost universally make someones day to hear "I read your thing and it was awesome" or "i love the linework/color/whatever in your picture," no matter how popular they get. So, i mean. Theres a certain amount of symbiosis i think you're notfiguring into your calculations here.
    • Like x 2
  20. lvkz

    lvkz Well-Known Karkat

    @albedo yeah abstract isn't the word i was looking for there but i couldn't find it so i gave up lol. thanks for setting me straight. your post gave me a lot to think about. i never looked at it as me being intimidatingly different. i don't consider people enough, i just assume they think like me and it's fucked me up a lot
    YYYYYYup that's 900% me :') it's not even just the lack of self-esteem but it's just a fact that my creative skills, my jokes, storytelling etc. are not up to par... my brain is really half-activated when i'm not with other people lkgfjdg;. i ask people to talk about my AU with me because if i'm not talking with somebody the ideas will stop flowing. i wanna be with people who make top of the line shit so i can learn and be inspired... it's a vicious cycle
    i talk about marketing because i'm reading a lot about marketing right now... it's about basically tailoring someone's experience with the brand/you in such a way to make them feel good and associate you with certain things... which is kinda what we do when we choose how to present ourselves, who to socialize with, etc. i guess it can be applied to socializing in general but it's more so with artists working in an actual business as a brand. and as you become more popular you have to be more concerned with your brand. but that is for your audience, not your personal friends so i wouldn't say it describes friendship really

    and like you said, with people who aren't as popular it just becomes a non-concern... it's not an obstacle to knowing them as a person. i say "at least" because it's the least challenging way to interact but yeah i sound like an asshole saying that

    a lot of this is... probably brain problems? but if so i just want to minimize it... i don't want it to become a problem i have to warn people about and explain. i think you are right in that i have been trying to over-systematize it and apply one way of thinking to everybody. i think i need to just stop and remember that it's not everybody's way of seeing it and we all just kinda formulate these things for ourselves and that it's self-contained for each person. like i'm throwing off so many red flags people tell me i sound like i have this or that disorder all the time... people think i'm just manipulative and just trying to get fame for myself when it's an obstacle for me too. for me to change my mind on something it needs to be 100% sound and consistent with what i see and i wish i could change my mind on this but i need for it to make sense another way. talking to people helps me with that especially realizing which parts are.... probably brain problems.... as embarrassing as it is to be throwing off signals
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