Loose thought: "Attractive Nuisance"

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, here's a thing I've been thinking about:

    If you have a thing which is hazardous, but is of a kind of hazard likely to cause people to come try to interact with it, that can be called an "attractive nuisance". Say, a swimming pool with no fence or anything can result in kids swimming unsupervised, and drowning.

    This is the root of my objection to a lot of the "vent thread" discourse: The notion that you can post nasty comments about people, and then blame them if they get hurt.

    No.

    The forum format invites reading, and things like tags and spoilers don't work like fences; they prevent accidentally wandering into a thing, but they don't prevent someone from trying to look if it seems interesting. And if you are talking about someone, that is by nature interesting to them.

    If you say uncharitable shit about people, you said it. This is not changed by tagging, by spoilers, by anything else. You said the thing. If they are hurt by it, you said a hurtful thing about them and they were hurt by it, and nothing changes this. If you don't want to hurt them, don't say uncharitable or mean things about them. If you are okay with hurting them, then go ahead and do it, but don't try to make up reasons they can't react as though you did so.

    "Just venting" doesn't mean "I don't have to apologize if I hurt people". If you hurt people, you owe them every bit as much of an apology whether or not you claimed that you were "just venting".
     
    • Like x 13
  2. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Before anyone panics, you don't walk into your neighbor's yard and take an ax to their pool, there are proper ways to respond.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
    • Like x 6
  3. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    That gets messy, @Beldaran - if I see poop with my name on it I am going to respond in the same place it was pooped. I want the same people that saw the original poop to see my response to it. Putting it in another place means only the ones that care about me might see it where the followers of the pooper may never look because I am a bad person (the pooper said so!). Vagueing doesn't excuse the pooper, it just makes it harder to justify a response in-thread.
    IMO - an attacked person, whether explicit or vagued, has a right to pop in and defend themself. In any thread, in any forum.
     
    • Like x 2
  4. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    @seebs I thought you were going to take a break?
     
    • Like x 7
  5. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    That is why vent threads have all the signalling saying "Here be poop, pls don´t touch"
    Similar say to a pool with lots of signage saying what is here and to not swim, you might drown.
     
    • Like x 1
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Signage does not protect you from attractive nuisance laws, usually.

    And, again: "No."

    If you talk about a person, you talked about them, no matter what signalling you used. If you are not okay with how people feel about what you say about them, it's up to you to apologize or say different things.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Yup - but when defaming someone, that signage becomes irrelevent. The poster has followers that the defamed person may not be aware of - the ONLY place the defamed person can be sure of reaching the people that read the poop is on the thread it was spread on. Using "it was just my opinion" is a shitty argument to start with, and doing it in a thread where they can't be called on it is even worse. Trying to protect insults from being refuted is a very bad idea
     
    • Like x 4
  8. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    If expressing that you think someone's an asshole on the internet is now as serious as defamation I am sure a lot of lawyers will be very busy and rich very soon.
     
    • Like x 14
  9. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Was not referring to such a simple assertion. Thank you for assuming I'm stupid.
     
  10. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    @Lissa Lysik'an I feel you, I share your concerns, but we've got a somewhat functioning system here that tries to take into account the needs of people on all sides. It's not perfect but for right now it's what we've got.
     
    • Like x 4
  11. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    Am I? That would be news to me. I'm assuming you are willfully misreading shit because oyu are intelligent enough to figure out that as far as I know nobody is currently claiming that hurtful shit in vent threads should NOT be responded to. That is not the point. The point is that a shitload of people here have next to no support system and do not have tools for dealing with negative feelings productively. Characterizing vent threads as "threads people say hurtful shit about people in to defame them" is disingenuous and counter to what I thought the point of this forum was.
     
    • Like x 5
  12. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    I agree, @Beldaran , that it is working so far. I was pointing out the flaw in the argument that it covers all cases. I think I detailed the exceptions to the cases covered by our current system well enough. I wanted them on record mostly because, as @seebs has pointed out in the past many times that once you make a rule people WILL use it to abuse the system. If someone poops my name I will answer in the same thread they did it (disregarding silly crap).
     
    • Like x 1
  13. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    Also I was asked to relay that littlemissCodeless is trying to avoid the thread and tapping out so please don't Quote/Ping Cody.
     
    • Like x 2
  14. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    I do not see where I said such a thing in this thread. Perhaps you are confused about where you are and who you are talking to?
     
  15. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Please be advised that if the OP wants that conversation out of their vent thread it'll be split into a new thread.

    Often they don't, just be aware.
     
    • Like x 2
  16. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    Did I say it was in this thread?
    Can you maybe not try to imply that I'm stupid?
    This entire fucking thing started because LT asked seebs to not talk to them in that specific thread. That's a sensible enough request. And it has been resolved too.
    There is absolutely no need to make this another round of "are vent threads toxic and awful, how badly do we need to talk in circles about how much we would love to shame people for their emotions except we can't use rules to do so because clearly written rules are the devil". Of course the current setup we have cannot be perfect, I think we have one instance of "No policy exists that cannot be abused by assholes" for nigh on every registered account fo this forum. No one is advocating for people to be allowed to shittalk others without consequences.
     
    • Like x 8
  17. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Please be advised I will raise a real stink if someone pops my name and then asks for my response to be removed.
    I don't expect it to happen since I'm just a minor annoyance here, but just in case :)
     
    • Like x 3
  18. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    I tend to think conversations in a thread are about the contents of the thread. Dragging in stuff from other threads without reference is confusing. I do not like people that try to attack me in one thread based on something I said in a different context in a different thread. It appears to me to be some personal animosity. I don't know what it's about and I don't really care. The LT threads have spawned interesting discussions but they are not this thread.
     
    • Like x 1
  19. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    @Lissa Lysik'an Hey man, God be with ye. X3

    I agree that it'll probably never be a problem, and I get where you're coming from. If anyone is going to have concerns about people lying about them on the internet, it's you what with the farms bullshit.
     
  20. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    Okay well that's a conflicting brain situation because I tend to cluster information bits along the axes of "Who did the thing", and since the post in FL's thread clearly referenced the same situation I assumed you did not rapidly change your stance between tabbing into a different thread.
    The point remains that I see very little point in going over this again. We have a protocol for how to engage with "someone is shittalking you in their vent thread". I do not see a way to deal with any other potential discomforts about vent threads without setting foot into "policing emotions" territory.
     
    • Like x 6
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