Loose thought: "Attractive Nuisance"

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    I didn't used to go looking at the vent threads of others. The more the anti-vent-thread contingent has talked about how it really is objectively vitally important to know what everyone's saying, not just that it's hard for some of us to resist the urge, the more I've fallen into some very bad habits in that area.

    I'm probably the only person for whom this is an issue and god knows I don't deserve the consideration myself, but I still want to know, how does that fit into your swimming pool metaphor?
    • Like x 2
  2. rigorist

    rigorist On the beach

    In addition, forum management drama/discussion (take your pick) is happening in "vent threads" now. And, Lord forgive me! I'm still addicted to that shit.
    • Like x 8
  3. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    vaguely confused about how this relates to my post but okay
  4. rigorist

    rigorist On the beach

    I didn't care about vent threads until suddenly FORUM BIZNESS is happening in them and I got sucked into reading them.
    • Like x 11
  5. Xavius Emeritus

    Xavius Emeritus Suit Monkey

    I do think that the forum business beyond venting needs to be relegated back to this board. Productive discussion has happened in the vent threads on what needs to be done about board policy, but overall for the past two weeks everything relevant to the current state of the board has been haphazardly scattered through Holler Closet, It's So Meta, Brainbent, TCHGB, and maybe more. Rigorist is right, it's made tracking what the hell's going on without delving into vent threads very tricky.

    I think, moving forward, venting about policies and such is fine, but if it becomes serious discussion it deserves a topic back here - ergo, if it lasts for more than a post or two and starts delving deep into the workings instead of excising anger about it.

    Editing to note that I accept my culpability in some of this. I'm usually reluctant to make threads discussing policy because I am new to my moderation position and not entirely sure what Seebs expects of me yet, so I am guilty of responding to one of the vent threads in question trying to elaborate on my feelings re: policies. I feel that while at the time this was a wise decision, in the future, we should make an effort to move those kinds of discussions here instead of occupying vent threads.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
    • Like x 3
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I think you deserve consideration. Everyone does. But consideration will sometimes not result in doing things in a way that you're comfortable with...

    It's not that it's necessarily "vitally important" to know what people are saying in general. It's that people have a legitimate interest in wishing to know what (if anything) is being said about them, so any policy which implies a duty not to find out what people are saying about you in a public/open place is going to fail completely. So I'm trying to make it really clear that, if people post stuff about other people, and those people find it and get hurt, there is no "you shouldn't have looked" option. You just have the normal range of options for when you say a thing that hurts someone, like sticking to it because you think it's important, or apologizing, or whatever.
    • Like x 3
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I would call it somewhat unreasonable, because it implies that, because a thing was in a vent thread, people have additional restrictions in how they could or couldn't respond to it that wouldn't otherwise apply.

    So, I am explicitly saying: A thread being "a vent thread" has exactly no effect whatsoever on "accountability". If you say a thing, it is said. Saying it in a vent thread doesn't make it less-said.

    The sole distinction is that I'm inclined to Fairly Strongly discourage direct argument with people in their vent threads. Note that "fairly strongly discourage" is not "prohibit or promise to edit/delete".

    I think the short answer is: Exactly the same thing that would happen anywhere else on the forum if you talked about someone you weren't willing to talk to, which is people might think you were an asshole, and you may or may not be okay with that.

    (Edit: Fix formatting.)
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
    • Like x 3
  8. Exohedron

    Exohedron Doesn't like words

    Given the Fairly Strong Discouragement, what of those who feel the need to defend their name in front of the audience of the vent thread and don't feel that said audience would follow them to a TCHGB thread? Not to suggest mod action or anything of the sort, but is there an Official Position on this issue, or would you prefer not to comment?
    • Like x 2
  9. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    • Like x 3
  10. Choco

    Choco Duke of the Weepy Marshmallow Brigade

    so i've been staying out of this drama & i don't have personal stake in it, but it does remind me of two separate Incidents from my life, and i want to share em in the hopes that it could clear up where (i think) seebs is coming from, or at least what i feel is the Central Conflict here (sorry this got kinda long)

    okay, so Incident the first: my freshman year of college, my roommate did something that annoyed me or whatever, i can't even remember what it was anymore, but i made a dumb vague post about it on my tumblr. what i forgot when i made that post however (in a fitting twist of Dramatic Irony) is that i had put a link to my tumblr from my facebook, and my roommate found that link and had been reading my blog since before i even moved in, i assume. so of course she saw my mean vaguey post about her and brought it up with our RA, and then proceeded to make the rest of my school year living with her a total fucking nightmare. things were... tense between us, let's say. i deleted the link from my facebook and deleted the post and promised not to blog about her anymore. anyway, months later, after several url changes, i figured she'd stopped reading my blog and it was Safe To Vent Again, and at this point she was being a horrid bitch to me and i was really suffering with a depressive episode, and she said something stupid and racist and i made another venty post about it on my blog. so of course she read it. i guess she was having some of our suitemates follow my tumblr and spy on me through it & report back to her with their findings, anyway, one night i came back to the room after hanging out with my friends, and all four of them confronted me in this big huge dramatic Mean Girl Pile On and my roommate was sobbing because i had hurt her feelings so bad, and i felt awful and victimized and the absolute worst part was that she was right.

    Incident the second, (which i would like to trigger warn for a very brief mention of self harm): my sophomore year of college i moved in with two of my guy friends, one of whom was older than me, but a nice guy i thought. (again, the ironies.) anyway, he had a lot of Difficult Life Stuff and we were getting pretty close at this point in our friendship, so he told me about his vent tumblr and said i could read it if i wanted to. so i did a couple times, it was mostly moping about his love life, which was fine (and a lot of Welcome To My Dark Twisted Mind stuff because he was a total edgelord). anyway throughout the semester he revealed himself to be an abusive monster and we got into a lot of stupid fights and at this point i was deep in the throes of another depressive episode and not sleeping and i don't even know what possessed me to do it- but it was 3 am and i was kind of upset with him so i went and found his vent blog again, which i guess he must have forgotten he told me about it, because the very first post was about me and how i was faking my self harm/depression for attention. and god, it hurt me. i was shaking with rage, i was livid, i remember clawing at my arms silently screaming i was so mad, and then i went and knocked on his door at 3 in the morning and screamed at him about it and he was like, well why were you reading my personal tumblr and i was like- okay first of all, it isn't even private, and second of all, you told me about it asshole. and then i found out that he'd been vagueing about me all semester long, and behind my back would call me a pig and stuff and anyway. it was a nightmare.

    so as someone who has vagued and has been vagued about, i think it's fair to say that if people find the shit you say about them on the internet and get upset about it you have to own up to that? you are allowed to think uncharitable things about people, to be upset with people and want to make frustrated screamy noies, to think people are stupid idiot morons, and you are even allowed to vocalize those thoughts in whatever manner you choose, but the price for saying those things in public is that you have to be prepared for the consequences of your words, and doing stuff like "well i was just venting!! you can't get mad at me or even acknowledge what i'm saying because it's ~just venting~ and ~doesn't count~" is shitty.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
    • Like x 19
  11. cleverThylacine

    cleverThylacine cuddles for the weird and the fierce

    Where is the protocol?

    I have to admit to being a little peeved after I heard someone say that after I had made an agreement to not talk about someone I didn't want talking to or about me, and in fact ignored that person, that person had been talking about me in a vent thread and it was somehow OK?

    I don't actually know if this is really true, because I was a good girl and didn't un-ignore and go look for it.

    I know where that leads and it's nowhere good. But in my universe "I'm not going to talk (shit or anything else) about you any more on this site" means exactly that, with no exceptions for public threads that anyone on the site can read just because they're labelled "venting".
    • Like x 2
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    You do what you gotta do. If you feel strongly about it, then I guess you do the thing. Someone might think you're an asshole. That's allowed. You can do the thing.
  13. cleverThylacine

    cleverThylacine cuddles for the weird and the fierce

    Bad Fanfiction is not about real people who can be hurt by reading it? I mean sure I feel pain when people say terrible, unfair and imnsho untrue things about Stanford Pines because I love him like burning, but he's not going to read it!

    If people say terrible, unfair, imnsho untrue and possibly even threatening things about me, I feel like I have a lot more justification to question it (or even be concerned about it) than I do if they say them about Ford.

    I do not make the rules for this site, but I personally do not think it is okay to post insulting or threatening content about real live people especially if it might not be true and/or is deliberately exaggerated in public places and say it's just venting and that makes it okay.

    I used to have a Dreamwidth account I used for this exact purpose, but I set the privacy settings so that nobody other than me (and of course the site admins because that's how the internet works) could see the posts.
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, the thing is, "OK" isn't really a state I'm comfortable with assigning to things. There's "not sufficiently dangerous that I feel like editing or deleting posts to fix it", and there's "I have to do a thing".

    That I don't think something can be improved by the addition of random wandering power-mad assholes changing reality to fit their preferences doesn't mean I think it's "OK". It means that if there is a solution, the solution is something else. Often, I decide that the simplest solution to a report is to just do nothing because, yeah, that post was annoying, but I don't have to intervene right away or else armageddon, it's just someone being an asshole.
    • Like x 2
  15. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This is pretty much the distinction I'd draw. Saying things about actual people is very different from writing fictional stories about fictional characters.
    • Like x 3
  16. cleverThylacine

    cleverThylacine cuddles for the weird and the fierce

    Yeah, and I'm not requesting that you do anything about it either.

    I'm saying I have a problem with it. It's a shitty thing to do, and it bothers me that some people appear to think labelling a thread "my vent thread" makes it socially acceptable somehow.

    That's not a problem I think you can fix though?
  17. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    I can't see a fix. Case-by-case is the only 'acceptable' response, IMO. Look at FL's responses - he's clearly not upset (and seems to be having a lot of fun). Nothing needs be done. Another person might have been freaked out and need the things stopped.
    • Like x 2
  18. furrylatula

    furrylatula a pissed off homestuck girl

    wait what am i having a lot of fun w im kinda lost here
  19. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    And sometimes the answer is "there's nothing both parties can deal with, because mutually-incompatible brain problems". But trying to solve the general problem seems impractical at best.
    • Like x 1
  20. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    The problem with Alix having a bad time - you took it calmly.
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