Moderation protocol question/request

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by hoarmurath, May 21, 2015.

  1. kmoss

    kmoss Under Construction

    The thing is, though, I don't think we walk on eggshells around you. And we don't have to do anything.

    (Also, like, I feel like we can consider the source here. I don't think your mom has had, historically, your best interests in mind.)

    I have topics I don't talk about with some of my friends. I'm sure they have topics they avoid with me. Sometimes we hit those topics anyway, but I think friendship includes the ability to fuck up, sometimes dramatically.

    You are your own person, and you can do what you want in the end.

    I know I would miss seeing your icon if you left. I like being able to know that the people I know are ok, and if they aren't ok, I like knowing that they're in a place that can help with that.

    You didn't pressure seebs for the moderation, seebs isn't being paid or forced to set up moderation - I'm not seeing people being manipulated into things they don't want to do.
     
  2. qwertaberta

    qwertaberta New Member

    fyi, you did not tell me to kill myself, and I do feel safe enough if I am allowed to punch back with an equal force. I know everybody's limits are different, and it's upsetting you, @BPD anon, too, so the moderation thing would be a perfect solution. So... the person who got upset has a right to be upset, I am just telling how things are from my point of view. Also, partial control is not an awful thing, as you seem to have concluded from that quote, but can also be where some good first steps bring you at.
     
    • Like x 2
  3. kmoss

    kmoss Under Construction

    This is probably a terrible analogy but I am apparently in charge of those SO

    it's like medication. Does medication fix you forever? No! But medication can help install boundaries and habits, and can keep you going while you're working on yourself. The moderation is probably not intended to be a forever thing. The moderation just installs boundaries so you can build habits around that.

    or like, if you have a tomato plant that is growing in a weird direction that could fuck it up, you put up a wire so that the plant can hang out and grow in a better direction until it gets stronger, and then it's fine on its own.

    #oh god #two analogies #i am sorry
     
    • Like x 3
  4. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    Also, honestly, practicing how and where to lose your shit might be the most valuable skill you can learn. Like, you have these super intense emotions. What are you gonna do about it? Lash out? Ok, but where, when, at whom? Can you train yourself to scream obscenities somewhere else? Another thread, out loud alone, in your journal? Can you eventually work yourself to the point of throwing down your mouse and doing something constructive with your anger, like ragebaking or exercise?

    I know this is exactly what you're having trouble doing, and maybe moderation is what you need to get that second of control to redirect. But i think having a plan ahead of time for how you want to realistically handle your emotions and then working baby steps towards doing that is in the long run muchmore helpful than just beating yourself up or having to apologize every time something hurts you,
     
    • Like x 2
  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Are people here in general familiar with the concept of "restorative justice"? I'm wondering if there's a thing other than "BPD Anon has to leave" which could make the people who've been hurt by meltdowns feel better and/or safer. Because I get the impression that the issue isn't that she wants specifically to leave, but that she wants to make people feel safer somehow.
     
    • Like x 4
  6. Aondeug

    Aondeug Cringe Annoying Ass Female Lobster

    I'm familiar with it, yes. I'm also fond of it.
     
  7. albedo

    albedo metasperg

    Yeah, me too.
     
  8. AbsenteeLandlady123

    AbsenteeLandlady123 Chronically screaming

    @BPD anon http://stopbreathethink.org/ - dropping the link to this here because I find it incredibly helpful. Also recommend drinking some water and doing general breathing exercises to help calm down. In for 10, hold 20, release & repeat with a hand over your heart so you can feel it working. I understand what your brain is doing, taking half an hour to dedicate to chill should help a bit.
     
  9. AbsenteeLandlady123

    AbsenteeLandlady123 Chronically screaming

    Have to get some sleep now. Happy to offer my inbox as a place to discharge - also diagnosed with BPD, fwiw
     
  10. Wiwaxia

    Wiwaxia problematic taxon

    @seebs What would restorative justice look like in this particular situation?

    @BPD anon At the end of the day it's your call, of course, but as someone you have told to off themselves I would rather you stayed.

    @hoarmurath What exactly do you want to see happen? Your original post is kinda vague.
     
    • Like x 2
  11. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Well, I don't know. I guess the question would be what kinds of things the people who are injured would feel better with. And I am sort of inclined to veto "anyone like that has to leave", because that's punitive justice, in effect; it solves the problem by excluding or punishing. The question is whether people can be made to feel better without a requirement that someone else be hurt.
     
  12. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    Thanks @Wiwaxia I've been trying to put that into words and was failing epically. In addition: removing people doesn't solve the problem, make hurt feelings go away or prevent further pain. If there is going to be a solution, I would like it to be one that makes things better, not just removing potential problems.
     
    • Like x 1
  13. qwertaberta

    qwertaberta New Member

    I'm not hurt, but @hoarmurath apparently is made unconfortable [which is a serious thing! we can have compassion to her and bpd in the same time, we all caring about bpd does not mean we don't take your suffering seriously!], so I give my microphone to her.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  14. TwoBrokenMirrors

    TwoBrokenMirrors Merely a whitebait in the mayo of life

    Okay I know this may well be hurtful but, well, if I'm going to live by the adage 'honesty is the best policy' then I might as well live up to the damn adage.

    I walk on eggshells a little bit around BPD anon. Mostly this just comes as having a standing policy of 'Do not directly engage BPD anon in conversation'.
    I do this because we are actually fairly similar in places, but in opposite ways. The most obvious instance is when it comes to grimdarkness in fiction vs. fluffiness. We are on opposite sides, and we both get very prickly if those sides are perceived as being invalidated.
    I also don't deal well with people being angry at me. There is a fairly high chance that if I had a meltdown aimed at me (and I acknowledge, actually, that the meltdowns are frequently not really specifically targeted. This is a pretty good thing, I think) I would then go into a meltdown of my own. My self-esteem issues are an absolute riot, I'm tellin' you. I mostly feel like drawn-out interaction with each other would probably lead to bad things on both sides.

    BUT

    Two things are very important here
    1) I do not hate BPD anon. As I acknowledged, we are actually pretty similar in spots. I know how it feels to want to lash out against anyone who makes you feel like you don't count. And the complete lack of targeted malice counts for a lot.
    2) There is no way I'm going to advocate for removal at any point. Because, well, my little coping mechanism works fine- it's never stopped me posting in threads, even to say things that might be disagreed with. And, to break my rule and talk direct since I'm talking about you and nobody likes being talked about as though they weren't present- there are plenty of people around who like your presence, @BPD anon . Truly! And honestly I don't think trying to exact some punishment would even help me, because you've never done a damn thing to me. I'm wary because, as happens because life is kind of shitty sometimes, we happen to have incompatible brainweird. I'm dealing with mine my way, and all I really want is for you to find a way to deal with yours.

    I think I agree that moderation could be helpful, as it stands. If everyone involved is amenable, of course, and nobody feels like they're being pushed into it.
     
    • Like x 5
  15. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    i absolutely don't want folks with bpd or hpd to have to leave due to occasional meltdowns, and @BPD anon in particular is trying really hard to get a handle on their shit. but i also don't want @hoarmurath to feel attacked at random intervals; that is stressful as hell, i feel you on that. even though they don't really mean it, it's still Suddenly Aggro WTF and that can mess people up.

    i heartily endorse the solution of putting @BPD anon on moderation. if you agree, beeps, seebs and i will see all your posts first, and have to approve them before they get posted in public. i'm thinking of this not as a punishment, because it's absolutely not, but as a safety net for you.

    because you feel super, super terrible after you blow up on people, and i think you'd find it a huge relief to know that here, if you go splodey, it'll be caught by someone it can't hurt, and there won't be any civilian casualties, so to speak. you can't hurt me or seebs. both of us have the superpower of being able to genuinely not take things personally when we know they're just symptomatic.
     
    • Like x 5
  16. hoarmurath

    hoarmurath Thor's Hammer

    @jacktrash

    That is an excellent suggestion!

    I don't want anyone to be made to leave. You are in charge of the community, all I was asking is the middle option.

    @BPD anon

    You are not evil. And we are not victims (at least I don't feel victimised), but sometimes you hurt people. I do find it uncomfortable how vehement you are sometimes when people dislike what you like and we clearly do have separate interests, but I have felt a similar vehemence in my past, so I get it a bit, maybe? Hurting people =/= evil. I have hurt people and I know I am not evil. I am quite sure none of us on this forum are, if I had to judge that.

    Also, I left the forum for a bit to do stuff after my topic, and I did not see you had apologised in the grimdark thread. Thank you for doing that, I appreciate it.

    @TwoBrokenMirrors is essentially saying most of what I am feeling. I know I might erupt into angry caps locky yelling if I felt someone was being attacked and I saw it. And caps locky yelling gives me that sort of visceral here be dragons feeling, which comes from my own experience of familial abuse.

    That being said, I am glad for a middle option.

    I did not mean to intend there would have to be a second coming of tumblr (wtf guys) and I do honestly find it disingenous that some of you implied that I was saying so. I am also glad seebs has clarified more of kintsugi's intent and meaning in general. I guess writing the topic was a way for me to do something I wouldn't usually have done before. Before I would have just left instead of trying to reach out to see what people thought.

    I also did not wish to attack BPD anon by raising the issue as an issue with them specifically. I think that it would be a good thing in general to have guidelines for the site, one of them being "this is a place where people will have emotions and feelings and opinions and thus it will not be entirely 100% safe for you". This would also help to avoid some grief in the future if it happens that someone who feels unsafe/uncomfortable with certain things happens here. If there is such a guideline document, I do apologise for missing it.

    Thank you for taking me seriously.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
    • Like x 3
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't think anyone meant to imply that you were trying to make this more-like tumblr, just that there's an understandable nervousness about "safe space" type wording because it can go bad really fast.

    We do have a community guidelines sticky in this form. If you think it should have more on this topic, I can try to add some.
     
  18. Silvereye

    Silvereye 89 White Paladin Traverses The Cosmos

    I was one of the people affected by the spiders meltdown and I think I was the only one who didn't explicitly accept BPD anon's apology. I appreciated the apology and I do appreciate that she is trying to do better, but I wasn't confident that this kind of incident wouldn't happen again. (I am not particularly patient or forgiving with people I am not already emotionally invested in. This is a matter of my brain conf, not hers.)

    This has probably influenced hoarmurath's stance on the issue, too. Since we're basically moirails she did hear my freshly hurt "wow, so I got told to die on the interwebs" opinion.

    I was most worried about the possibility that at some point BPD anon would flip at someone more fragile than me (and I'm moderate-to-lightly fragile). It was unpleasant and infuriating for me, but it didn't make me actively consider the idea. Not everyone has "I will now live twice as happily out of spite" reaction to being told to die and Kintsugi has higher than average concentration of at-risk people, I think.

    This, for me, is the war elephant in the room. BPD anon seems to be quite nice and beloved part of the community and the community seems to be helping her, so I don't want her to leave, but I would like a solution to the "is this a nuking day/thread" issue.

    If BPD anon is ok with being moderated, I would actually consider it excellent restorative justice. It would remove the aforementioned war elephant and she would still be able to participate. Everyone wins.
     
  19. hoarmurath

    hoarmurath Thor's Hammer

    Okay, I get that.

    And no, I was not expecting this to be a safe space, I mean, look at the forums we have.

    But what Silvereye said, basically. I did not mention her here before because I didn't want to break her confidence on the matter by raising it without telling her.

    The guidelines are amazingly thorough otherwise, but some sort of "here is how we might deal if your experiencing gets over other people's experiencing" specification could be cool. And saying that you don't do bans or punitive justice as a mode of operation, would also be nice. Considering that permabans are the way how practically any forum with the built-in capability is being run, stating it more strongly could be a good idea and also a positive sign for people with other complicated/generally misunderstood experiences.

    PS: I will sign off for now, as we are on Euro time and it's past midnight. I will be back in the morning.
     
    • Like x 1
  20. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    sleep good, we will work this out.
     
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