Mutual ignore software feature, AKA Yet Another Policy Discussion

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    It's been pointed out before, but being responsible =/= not being allowed, or being at fault, or anything of the sort. It means that only you can control you, and no one is obligated to take care of you, or apologize for your actions, or anything of the sort. If you cause damage, you're responsible, even if you couldn't help it. The same thing has been pointed out to Alix to death, you're not excused from it either just because you haven't suicide baited anybody.

    In case you've forgotten, Alix has evaded attempts to block off contact with her and caused be to attempt multiple times. This isn't fucking about Alix, it's about a deliberate troll who knows when they've been fucking froze out and has the self control to back the fuck off.

    Unless you're claiming you're possessed, no one can actually control how you act or feel, only influence it.
     
  2. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    I is backing out of this conversation because I do not believe the participants are speaking in good faith.
     
  3. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Oh, shit, that victim-blamer Khan strikes again.
     
  4. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    Ok I get where the disconnect happens. I don't have the spoons for an extensive argument, I´d just like you to consider that for people who are not you, the waste of energy really does happen whether we like it or not. Whether we do anything with the anger or not. I can´t give you any proof except for mine and Lissas report that this happens.
    I can manage my anger, I can redirect it or try to repress it (Bad idea, this is how you make emotional timebombs, but can be done in the short term.) But no, I cannot make it not happen in the first place. And due to the stuff I talked about above with having my feelings invalidated, the varies therapies for that would pretty much just retraumatize me.

    And if you consider the things both I and Lissa have told you about being bullied, maybe you can understand why your advice reads as victim blaming even if you don´t mean it to be. Because for a lot of people here, it´s just not possible. Not now, maybe not ever.

    ETA: If you cut me, I will bleed and feel pain. If you mock me, I will feel emotional pain and anger. That´s just how it works for me and I think most people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
    • Like x 4
  5. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    Wait! A thing. Lissa has the problems with putting the brakes on from angry feelings to a rage spiral and angry actions. So Khan is talking about applying the anger brakes at the stage of angry feelings. But like with the thing I was saying about Lissa's safeguards being fairly reliant on external intervention, okay. I'm taking away from Lissa's words that she doesn't have the brakes between anger and lashing out. But the way her brain ticks, she also isn't able to put the brakes on at that earlier spot either. Even if she knows someone is deliberately trying to provoke her, she isn't able to turn off her anger reaction, that part's out of her control, that's just how she's built, deep enough that she can't alter it.

    I think that if she catches it RIGHT at the earliest point and manages to disengage, or if Ancient Guardian is watching and can step in to intervene, that can take care of it. But her controls are a lot more limited than the average person and a lot more vulnerable to deliberate external provocation especially, even if she knows that's what's happening. She's doing what she can, but she's trying to communicate that just by the nature of how her brain works, that the controls that are natural (/doable) for a lot of other people are things she isn't able to do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
    • Like x 10
  6. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    That's pretty accurate.
     
    • Like x 6
  7. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    No. I'm talking about emotional continence, the notion that there are better reasons than others to become upset, and the notion that there is a time and a place at which expressing certain emotions is more appropriate.

    I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that people should just never be upset. Seriously, where are you getting these things?

    Where have I talked about fault this entire time? I have talked about personal responsibility. No one in this thread, except for maybe @spockandawe a couple pages back, has engaged with what I am actually saying. It is frustrating. I'm tired of repeating myself.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Where in the hell do you get the idea that people can "choose" when to be upset? That is not a part of life. Even not-me people do not "Choose" when to be upset. What world do you live in where being upset is a choice?
     
    • Like x 3
  9. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    I am pretty sure I live in this one.

    Otherwise there would not be so many relatable Twitter memes about things like, "When that one friend does some shit but you said you weren't going to get mad today."

    If this was an experience completely isolated to me, other people would not be able to relate to it.
     
  10. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    If you have control, surely you could just never be upset, and you'd be happier.

    Unless control isn't an all-or-nothing thing. In which case, any claim that control exists doesn't justify a claim that anyone who fails to successfully control a thing has failed in a moral duty.

    I don't think I buy the notion of "personal responsibility" which goes entirely to one person in an interaction between people.

    And generally, if you say a thing is wrong, and a person had control over it and a responsibility not to do it, that sounds like "fault".
     
    • Like x 4
  11. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Um - those memes are about NOT choosing to be upset, it happens to them because someone else did something. I think you missed the point.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Is responsibility always a 100% one-sided thing? If I know someone has severe PTSD, and I regularly set off firecrackers near them, am I 100% free of responsibility or fault in any way, because their actions are still their responsibility?

    I'd agree... But I'd also include yourself in the set of people who can't actually fully 100% control how you act or feel, only influence it.
     
    • Like x 6
  13. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    Wait wait wait, lemme try to figure this out. I'm on mobile, so it might be thirty minutes until I'm back on a real screen and keyboard.

    Khan isn't saying that people can have ABSOLUTE control over their emotions. She's saying you can have some control, and you can consciously try to improve that control (not everyone can do this, like Lissa, which is where part of the argument is coming from). For Khan in particular, feeling anger is a problem in how it makes her act, and even if the brakes between feeling and action aren't quite there, those actions are still her responsibility. So she specifically has a lot of experience in controlling how she feels anger. It's not PERFECT, absolute control isn't a thing, but she's saying it's something you do exert SOME control over. And in this specific case, if she can tell that someone is deliberately trying to inspire anger, that... makes it easier for her to set the situation aside and not have that emotional response.

    Which won't work for EVERYONE, especially if a person isn't used to making that kind of conscious control effort. And if the trolling hits you in a sensitive place, it becomes harder. Or if your brain ticks like Lissa's, it just isn't a thing you're physically able to do. But when a person is looking for [negative] response, that will be unpleasant for you to experience, Khan thinks that it's better for people to step in right there and derail their emotional response at that earlier point.

    That doesn't quite cover your whole post here, and I can type more/better later, but now my food is here, and I must feast
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
    • Like x 8
  14. Aondeug

    Aondeug Cringe Annoying Ass Female Lobster

    I can choose to a degree to not be upset. Or, rather, in many cases it is me choosing to no longer continue fanning on the upset. However there are certainly times when I can decided actually no I'm going to meditate and then go on a walk and not be pissed the fuck off.

    However there are certainly times when I seem incapable of it. Those times are when I'm just completely melting down? And really nothing seems to help save to just let me burn myself out. I do try to do my best to keep the damage of said meltdowns to a minimum. So I'll stick to my vent thread or to certain very close friends instead of exploding in random threads or actually taking and breaking every last dish in the house. So while I can't choose there to not be upset I can choose what I do in response to my being upset. Usually.


    This is basically how Buddhism defines control and it's also why Buddhism declares there to not be a self, for if there was a self then surely you'd have absolute control over it. I mean you have it so it's yours right. But you don't have absolute control because sometimes you die or get sick or age or get so pissed that you throw up and otherwise just suffer. But you do have limited degrees of control. You can't just grab karma by its throat and tell it, no, but you can subtly guide it to what you want. So control exists but also doesn't exist unless you're Enlightened in which case it does but even then we cannot say that it exists nor not exists.
     
    • Like x 6
  15. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    OH, plus @seebs, you've mentioned in the past that you have some REALLY strong instantaneous anger emotions and desire to act on them, but you can tell that you shouldn't do the thing, so you dont, and then the anger burns out. I'm in a similar boat (driven more by inertia/apathy than by logical thought :p) so I think this is an ESPECIAL blind spot for you. Definitely ask if I'm not being clear, and I can explain better.

    (eta: and @ASPD Anon, feel free to grill me from the other direction, or let me know if I'm missing any major points in what you're trying to say)
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
    • Like x 4
  16. Codeless

    Codeless Cheshire Cat

    Ok, I´m officially out of spoons and taking myself out of this discussion before I do in fact lose control over my actions. Do Not tag me
     
  17. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    It would be nice if any of these mystical things had any relation to the real world.
    I has a brain that works in a certain way. It has been showed in fMRI studies. I do not have control over it even when I try.
    All this bullshit about "you can choose not to be angry" is bullshit. And makes me angry :)
     
  18. Aondeug

    Aondeug Cringe Annoying Ass Female Lobster

    As a note I want to clarify that I'm not saying you can, Lissa. Simply that others such as myself do have the capability. It's not a perfect one. Because people honestly kind of suck and we're huge problems. But I've got it to some extent and I'm getting better at it.
     
    • Like x 7
  19. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    I can try to explain this thing too! Once I'm home. I do a little bit of the thing, even though it doesn't come naturally, and I tend to apply it to sadness more than anger. It still won't work for you, from what I've taken away from your words. But it IS A thing a lot of people are able to do to some degree.
     
  20. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Nope. I'm biting my tongue because I feel like people are more likely to listen to Spock-Roleplaying-Khan than pure, undiluted Khan.

    (You should let me know when you read the story thing, and if you have any notes on the story thing.)
     
    • Like x 1
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