Mutual ignore software feature, AKA Yet Another Policy Discussion

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by seebs, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. Vierran

    Vierran small and sharp

    Disclaimer: I haven't read the past few pages in depth. That said, I have a thought about trolling's role that is making sense to me. Might be totally unrelated or redundant to points already made, so, bear with me.

    In a healthy internet user, some trolling is valuable because it helps maintain the user's immune system. In the same way that exposure to viruses helps train the body to have a response to viruses that is appropriate, being around trolls helps internet users deal with people who are Wrong On the Internet in a more appropriate and productive fashion.

    However: the key concept in this metaphor is that it works for healthy people. People who are immune-compromised will not develop appropriate responses to pathogens through exposure, they'll just get sick. In terms of mental and emotional health, it is very clear that a lot of kintsugijin are immune compromised. They won't just toughen up or get better at mindfulness in response to baiting. If we want the forum to be usable for them, we may have to take certain precautions, like filtering troll posts above and beyond what most forums would do.

    Are those precautions worth taking? I'd say yes, based on what I want kintsugi to be, but it does get into the question of safe spaces. We can try to make sure to wash our hands and not go visit our immune compromised friends when sick, but we can't make a public place perfectly sterile.

    I'm out of words for elaborating on this metaphor that make sense to me. Please feel free to poke me for clarification if it didn't make sense to you.
    • Like x 11
  2. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    I actually like the thinking in that. It does work for describing the difference between those of us that cannot ever handle being trolled in a healthy manner and the 'normals' (no slight intended) that can sit back and laugh at the trolls and go on with their posting, perhaps strengthened a little against the poop-germs, having seen them and been immunized.
    • Like x 1
  3. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    Sorry for flouncing yesterday. Got extremely angry and had to fix it. Sorry if I got snappish at you, @seebs

    Would like to point out for data gathering (and, if she's curious, I have Lissa on ignore now for self care reasons, so if she's talked at me, I can't see it. only saying this for clarity reasons) that what anonymous is doing and what Alix has done are, to me, and I think Khan would agree, are two completely different situations. It's easy to see what anonymous' goal is: get a rise out of people with as little effort as possible. I never saw much of their posts to begin with, but from what I did see, most of their content was silly one-liners and reaction images that basically boiled down to "that's stupid, you're stupid" to most people. It can be easy, if you've been on forums all your life and have run them yourself, to see that this is just a classic example of trolling, and to let it roll off your back. The most rise anonymous has ever gotten out of me personally was a bit of an eye-roll, though I'll admit I eventually blocked Up The People for other reasons.

    The Alix situation was different in the way of that it was made clear that it wasn't a classic example of trolling, and even it was, most trolls don't resort to telling people to kill themselves, which, no matter who it comes from, is pretty distressing. Just watching it happen from the sidelines is clearly distressing for some people, so I'm sure someone can see it'd be distressing to see directed towards your friends, and pretty distressing when this exact pattern of behavior is already triggering from years of abuse in this exact tactic. It's harder to make that disconnect when completely different factors that are already known to stress you out are at play, is basically all I'm trying to say. The two things aren't comparable, and no brain is perfect, and there comes a point where you can't really control when you are and aren't triggered, but some days it's easier to say that no, that's not going to set me off, than others.

    I've said this earlier in the thread, and I still stand by it, that there comes a point where you have to realize that you're responsible for your recovery. And sometimes you have to undertake some extremely uncomfortable measures in order to do that. And sometimes you have the make a choice between being frustrated and getting triggered, and it's hard, but it's most likely going to result in progress. You're going to falter and it might not even work, of course, 'cause recovery isn't some linear line, but holding other people responsible and absolving yourself of all fault and blame is only going to knock you back further and make progress slower until you knock it off. Yada yada yada this is a mental support/recovery forum and I think all of us here for that purpose should be taking appropriate steps towards that goal, and if this isn't a safe space but gives you tools to tailor it to be as safe as possible for you, the individual, then maybe some of us need to utilize them more.

    Anyway, rant over. Back to the ocean I go.
    • Like x 5
  4. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Kind of curious as to why since even during my angries I don't think I ever referred to @Maya at all. Ah well. One less person.
  5. Re Allyssa

    Re Allyssa Sylph of Heart

    I think this part is where a lot of the disconnect is happening?

    If one could choose not to be triggered, who would ever get triggered?
    If I could control my emotions (the feelings themselves, not actions), then I wouldn't randomly get sad or anxious and I wouldn't have mental health problems.

    Everything else you and Khan are saying makes sense, but I cannot understand controlling how you feel.

    I can see feeling then thing, and then taking steps to mitigate that feeling so you don't feel them as long. But you had no control over feeling that thing in the first place.

    Part of my recovery has been acknowledging that I don't have control over (initially) feeling things and thus I am not to blame from feeling bad. I think this is where the victim blaming cones in? (Also the differing definitions of responsibility, but I think that got hashed out already)
    • Like x 1
  6. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    When I say that, I was referring specifically to the experience of being frustrated because you can no longer see something (such as myself, being unable to see ignored content) and being triggered because someone you dislike is talking and it's distressing. Not "choosing not to be triggered", more "choosing not to deliberately trigger yourself and instead taking the frustration that comes from having to do something that makes that not happen."
    • Like x 4
  7. Re Allyssa

    Re Allyssa Sylph of Heart

    Okay, that makes sense, thanks
  8. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    @anonymous, 'K, YMMV.

    Out of curiosity, why pick such a small site to do your thing on?
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I seem to recall you spending significant time asking me to do things about things you found upsetting. This is inconsistent with what you seem to be saying, but presumably that means I'm not understanding what you're saying.

    The key distinction, I think, is between "this stuff is somewhere and if you go looking for it you might be unhappy, so don't" and "this stuff is being actively and intentionally presented to people specifically because it will hurt them".
    • Like x 1
  10. evilas

    evilas Sure, I'll put a custom title here

    @anonymous who said all pain was bad? We just said that deliberately causing pain for no other reason than entertainment is, well, it's bad for the surrounding society, which you don't really care about, but it also makes you disliked. Why do you want to be disliked so much?
  11. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yes. But what if the "unable to see some content" isn't just frustrating, but triggering? Then we have a problem, it seems to me...
    • Like x 3
  12. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    @anonymous, when you respond in text to criticisms, you make some jumps to fairly strong extremes in your comparisons. A lot of comparisons will break down and get ridiculous there, which I'm pretty sure is your point, but it doesn't mean that comparisons don't still have value at less intense levels. If someone hurts me by kicking me in the shins, even if they have a pattern of doing it, it's not torture and it's not serious injury, but they're still hurting me. And just for the sake of clarity, that's something that *I* did to people for years, because I thought the reactions were funny. But I was still hurting people.

    But some of the extremes you get to, they do give me the impression that the criticism has upset you a bit. The way the trolling game is played, you can't admit to that, even if it is the case. And outside of trolling dynamics, you probably wouldn't want to anyways, in front of a large audience of people who have been criticizing you. Lissa is a pretty extreme case, and you haven't hurt everybody, but you have hurt some people, and this pattern of interaction will continue to hurt some people. There are totally ways to justify it to yourself, I never thought I WASN'T hurting people when I kicked them, but I was fine with what I was doing anyways.

    And, as always, I've opened myself to a dismissive, humorously short, derailing response from you. I'll feel the harmless flavor of anger-frustration if that happens, but it will poof away in moments, and I won't be giving you the kind of funny response you're after.

    If there are things I'm saying that are things you want to poke at in a more genuine, not-trolling way... hm. By the parameters you established, you have very limited ability to engage genuinely out here. PMs of substance tend to make me anxious (bwaugh, trying to phrase this so people who have PM'd me don't feel bad, I'm not upset at anyone, everuone I can think of who's messaged me is fine) and talking to New People tends to send my anxiety through the roof, but I think I can at least try to respond to any questions you want to send my way. I'm a fairly private person, I don't socialize naturally, well, or often, and I like hoarding secrets, so I wouldn't be sharing anything you say without permission. The offer stands, in general. I'm starting from a fairly drained, fried place, so I can't guarantee how often/deep I'd be able to engage, but I'm willing to try.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
    • Like x 2
  13. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Is @anonymous posting in this thread? I hasn't seen any and I don't use user-ignore because it makes my head hurt to see out-of-context followups (and it's insulting to the person being ignored).
  14. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    due to post moderation their posts may appear farther back up in the thread once they get approved. If you are wondering you can search for posts by users in a specific thread by making a word-less search forposts by "anonymous" and clicking the tickbox for "search this thread only". The top most post will be the last post by them.
  15. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Ah - so peoples is responding to posts made yesterday (I really hate the 'yesterday' time thing - just give me the date and time, thanks) before my lots of babbles. I thought I was missing some new posts.
  16. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

  17. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    ty :) Those posts had already showed to me before I was dragged away (sometimes I doesn't know when to quit) so they was 'old news'.
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    A whole lot of them seem to dislike you because you try to anger them. Good enough for a practical application.

    Discomfort is not mere lack-of-comfort, though. It's like dysphoria/euphoria; dysphoria isn't merely not being happy, it's actively being sad.

    No one said that. Saying "X causes injury" doesn't mean "X is equivalent to decapitation", either.

    Fair enough. But I think you'll find people in general think that "hurting people for entertainment" is a pretty bad thing to do.
    • Like x 3
  19. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    Competing needs, weighing the better of two bad options (lesser of two evils, if you would), etc. etc. It's not a perfect system, of course, it was one out of many examples I could have provided, and the point of "choosing to take your own recovery in your hands and make steps towards improvement" still stands.

    For me personally, being frustrated because I'm missing conversational context is a world better than making an attempt on my life because Person X exists in my presence.
    • Like x 1
  20. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yeah, and if it's just "frustrating", I'd agree. But we do have cases where people's needs are not merely incompatible, but mutually-triggering, and working through that becomes... challenging, I'd say.
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