Not okay yet

Discussion in 'Brainbent' started by OnnaStik, Apr 22, 2016.

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  1. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    I'm not trying to be passive-aggressive and I'm not trying to hurt her or especially not kill her, just because I want it to happen as far away from me as possible doesn't mean I don't want her to get better. But I've been trying to pretend I'm over this and I'm really not.

    I'm not okay with hating myself for "letting" her have this much power over me.

    I'm not okay with choking on the pressure to forgive'n'forget because That's What Good Christians Should Do (which I'm not blaming wholly or even for the most part on anyone here, but it would be lying to say that none of it came from here) and also Isn't She Suffering Enough Without You Adding More Guilt By Bleeding All Over The Place.

    I'm not okay with being terrified that those in positions of authority don't give a shit about me because they personally like the people who hurt me. This is not an accusation, this is my fear, and I need and deserve to be able to express my fear. (Another thing I'm not okay with is being afraid to express any kind of vulnerability because someone will use it against me. It was an issue before, but having it actually happen again has a way of kicking this crap into overdrive.)

    I am not asking for anything to change, I just needed to stop pretending.
     
    OnnaStik, Apr 22, 2016 at 9:35 PM
    #1
    • Like x 3
  2. Wiwaxia

    Wiwaxia problematic taxon

    Witnessed, and validating again that you absolutely have the right to feel this way.
     
    Wiwaxia, Apr 22, 2016 at 10:58 PM
    #2
    • Like x 1
  3. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    Is there a moral equivalent of the "called 'gifted' as child, self-worth fucked all to hell and back later on" thing? I keep thinking of this one time, I don't even remember how old I was, but I was telling dad about my school day and mentioned that someone had accidentally stepped on my toe, and the very first thing he asked was if I forgave them. It hadn't even occurred to me to be angry. Of course he was pleased to hear it. Not being pissed off was the highest morality, or something.

    (Coming back to a dispute later is extra special terrible. Gotta get everything out there right away because if you wait for things to cool down, the expiration date of your displeasure has passed and you're dragging up old crap. That's not very forgiving. That's not very Christlike.)
     
    OnnaStik, Apr 24, 2016 at 2:16 AM
    #3
    • Like x 1
  4. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    I don't think there is a word/phrase for it exactly, but it is a thing. I was the "good child" which means I was regularly rewarded for putting everyone before me and not doing any of the "bad things". I was also chronically depressed and didn't fight much at all, so that was another "good" thing :/

    I almost gave up my future so I could raise my sister's kids(as in move away from all friends and family besides her, spend all my energy on watching children I don't like). The good news is that the event did a really good job of burning me and I am much better at saying "no, my desires matter too". I still have to work on it though.
     
    rorleuaisen, Apr 24, 2016 at 11:09 AM
    #4
    • Like x 1
  5. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    Can't bring up past behavior, you should have forgiven it by now. (Getting more into my upbringing on this.) That... that's emotional abuse, right? That's actually an established tactic and I'm not just being whiny?

    I'm as disturbed as anyone else by tumblr's "forgiveness is a dirty word" attitude, but the culture of mandatory forgiveness it's backlashing against isn't any less toxic just because some people overcorrect.
     
    OnnaStik, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:14 PM
    #5
    • Like x 2
  6. Wiwaxia

    Wiwaxia problematic taxon

    yyyyyeah, that is indeed an established emotional abuse tactic.
     
    Wiwaxia, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:55 PM
    #6
    • Like x 1
  7. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    Yeah, just about anything that starts with "you can't talk about this" is a bad thing. I truly believe you should not be required to not talk about a thing. For example, my brother used to be very violent(highlights include throwing a pot of boiling water on my sister, chasing my mom with an ax, threw scissors at me). He is no longer violent and has gotten that under control. He doesn't like for it to be talked about, because he is a different person now. It is still my experience. It is still things that effected me. I don't talk about it with him or his friends/associates, because we are on good terms and I respect that he doesn't want that to haunt him forever. But I talk about it with others because it is a part of my life and I am allowed to talk about my life. Even if I forgive him(which I totally do) that does not erase the impact it has had on me. I will not erase/deny aspects of my life just because it makes others feel uncomfortable.
     
    rorleuaisen, Apr 24, 2016 at 2:34 PM
    #7
    • Like x 2
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    In the interests of clarity, because I am easily confused and sometimes there are ambiguities: "Her" = "BPD Anon", y/n?

    And yes, you have a right to express that fear. And I don't even think it's an unsupportable or irrational fear. To be clear, yes, I also care about you, and want you to be safe and/or get better. The problem of trying to build a community that can contain lots of broken people is not an easy problem, and I have no good solutions for it.
     
    seebs, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:49 AM
    #8
  9. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    Y.
     
    OnnaStik, Apr 25, 2016 at 7:44 PM
    #9
  10. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Thanks.

    I... honestly haven't got much for great ideas on trying to fix this. But! I do absolutely agree that it's good for you to feel safe expressing your fears. I don't like the thing where people jump from "I don't think the thing you're afraid of is likely to happen" to "you should not have this fear at all, and you certainly shouldn't talk about it". That seems unhealthy.
     
    seebs, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:46 PM
    #10
    • Like x 1
  11. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    I guess this is my vent thread now.

    Why do people keep forgetting about me?

    Dad constantly forgets I need to get home from work and won't keep his damn phone on him in case we need to remind him. Mom forgot I was going to spend today with her. My only meatspace friend hasn't communicated with me in weeks, I had to find out from Mom that she'd been in the hospital from a fricking heart attack.
     
    OnnaStik, May 1, 2016 at 10:43 PM
    #11
  12. Wiwaxia

    Wiwaxia problematic taxon

    jesus fucking christ on a pogostick, that's...
    :/

    witnessed, man, and you have a standing invitation from me to chat or ask for listenings
     
    Wiwaxia, May 1, 2016 at 10:46 PM
    #12
    • Like x 1
  13. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    thanks... honestly, it helps some just to have someone react that way, the idea that I'm always overreacting is kind of wedged in there.

    The friend- let's call her C, I guess- wasn't even all that close and I knew it, we went to the mall sometimes and the movies, and I knew I had more riding on the friendship than her just because of my shortage of any other friends. I can't drive and we have dickall for public transit around here so I can't exactly go around to things whenever I want, even if I was likely to make friends easily there. C's my neighbor, so.

    Now I dunno if I should try reaching out to her again or if I'd just be bothering her. If she wasn't talking to me it must be for a reason, right?
     
    OnnaStik, May 1, 2016 at 11:07 PM
    #13
  14. Wiwaxia

    Wiwaxia problematic taxon

    In my experience, not usually, although I have definitely Been There wrt paranoiabrain telling me that.
     
    Wiwaxia, May 1, 2016 at 11:33 PM
    #14
    • Like x 1
  15. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Yeah - I'm the kind of friend that never talks to you unless you talk to me first. Doesn't matter how long I have known a person, I cannot initiate a conversation. So I have had friends IM and ask what I am mad at since I haven't talked to them in a long time and I have to remind them that I can't say hi first. I don't even say hi first to family. So no, there is not necessarily a reason that is about you. Could just be "life got in the way and then they didn't talk and might like to be contacted".
     
    Lissa Lysik'an, May 1, 2016 at 11:46 PM
    #15
    • Like x 1
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Wow, that is sorta fucked up. I don't know what to suggest, apart from the possible benefits of finding a different way to get a ride home from work.

    I make a point of putting plans-with-people in my calendar so I see them, because otherwise I do this. (Personal best: failed to call girlfriend during entire month of February. Her birthday? February 14th.)
     
    seebs, May 3, 2016 at 11:30 PM
    #16
  17. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    I've slept on it and I still don't get it. I've looked back over that part of the thread over and over and over and I still don't see anything else she could possibly have been responding to. I can be, and am, sorry about overreacting, because even if I was right that would have been Too Much. But how can I be sorry about misinterpreting when I still half-suspect that I was right in the first place and now have an added- call it 1/16 of a suspicion- that she was pulling some kind of gotcha?

    I could have jsut apologized anyway, but I'm trying to move away from doing that because it's insincere and That's Bad.

    And not that it really matters anymore, I guess, since she doesn't want to hear from me ever again, but what if something else like it happens?
     
    OnnaStik, May 21, 2016 at 10:59 AM
    #17
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I really respect and approve of moving away from automatic apologies, even though it's socially problematic sometimes. I just think it's a really admirable thing to not say things you're not sure of.

    Can you clarify what a "gotcha" would be like in this circumstance? Because I don't really know what that would mean. Would that be the thing of saying a thing and then denying that it meant the thing?

    And I think the distinction here is one we've had come up in other recent things: The distinction between "the circumstance that caused me to think of or say a thing" and "the circumstance I was specifically and exclusively talking about". I think it quite likely that your apparent disbelief of a thing I said about my disabilities was the cause of Kathy's post, but that doesn't mean that it was directed at you specifically. Because other people probably feel the same way, and there's lots of other similar or parallel cases. So I think it was a general comment, even though your posts may have been what got her thinking about the topic.

    And for the general "what if something else"... So I've seen a handful of cases where I feel like you took offense at things that weren't aimed at you. I mean, look at your "Witchfinder General" title; the comment rigs made about witch hunts was, he says, not directed at you. Or cases where you took offense because circumstances plus existing anxiety looked suspicious. And I think one problem here may be one of those shitty feedback loops, where if you feel like people hate you, that makes you read things as more hostile than you otherwise might, which creates a stronger impression that people hate you, and so on. Worse, you sometimes react in ways that then hurt or anger people... So some people actually start disliking you, because you behaved in a way that was upsetting. And I'm not sure how to fix that, but I think it's a problem.

    And to make it clear, I don't just think it's a problem for you; I think it's a problem for the community, because you are not the only person predisposed to think people hate them on this forum, and you are not the only person I've seen hit by this feedback loop. (I can think of at least three off the top of my head, and I'm not even awake yet.)
     
    seebs, May 21, 2016 at 12:20 PM
    #18
  19. OnnaStik

    OnnaStik Relatively nice for a bloodthirsty mercenary

    Pretty much. Note, in light of new information, that I no longer think in any fraction that that is what was happening, though I remain unsure of what else I was supposed to think under the circumstances.

    (the "general" thing I've talked about elsewhere now.)
    The first one may not have been. The other one pretty unambiguously was, though.
    Yeah. No idea what to do about it other than "de-escalate whenever possible" but like. I'm kind of trying that already. Reconciling it with "stop just backing down all the time and saying shit you don't mean" is a problem.
     
    OnnaStik, May 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM
    #19
  20. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I think the "supposed to think" thing may be sort of where the miscommunication happens. I took it as a general statement that Kathy has found it more useful to assume that people who say they can't do a thing can't do that thing. I didn't assume it was intended as criticism or judgment, just a report on her experience of how she has interacted with some statements in the past and gotten what she considered good results. In other words, I assumed it meant only the things it explicitly said. I didn't assume it was intended as criticism of people, or a specific person, or anything else.

    And we've had a ton of miscommunications where a message shows up with timing or context such that there's a plausible(-ish) inference about meaning. For instance, you made a comment about Trump, but to people not currently watching political news, it ended up being a comment about People Being Bad that showed up within something like five minutes of a thread about someone you were visibly upset with, so people assumed that was the context. But it wasn't! And that's... sort of a consistent pattern of problems, and I don't really know how to fix it.

    Okay, if I understand correctly, he made a comment about witch hunts, which you took to be a remark about you, and which he said wasn't. After he'd said it wasn't, you said "You're the one who called me a fucking witch-hunter." He responded "It seems you have found your witch."

    The thing is, though. Assume for the sake of argument that his first comment was, in fact, not personally directed at you, and you'd been informed of this, and that you then reaffirmed the false accusation. At that point, "it seems you have found your witch" is a sorta bitchy way to express a thing, but the thing expressed is "you are sticking with a known-false accusation", and that's actually an arguably legitimate complaint. I don't think it's any kind of general claim about your behavior or choices, but it's a valid criticism of a specific act.

    The thing I would probably start with is: I think there's enough cases where you took a thing as a personal criticism when it almost certainly wasn't that you should probably be distrustful of that impression. I am leaning towards the theory that your brainweird is inclining you to feel attacked when you genuinely aren't. And I think maybe a first step would be to, when you feel attacked, just ask whether it was intended that way or not. I... wouldn't actually recommend this in all environments, really. Because some people are lying assholes. But around here, we have a lot of people who will be totally truthful about it. I have been known to jump on people, and I admit it when asked, because I figure that's the least I could do.
     
    seebs, May 21, 2016 at 1:32 PM
    #20
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