Question about the HBO show Westworld (Concerning anxiety and racism)

Discussion in 'General Advice' started by BlackholeKG, Oct 8, 2016.

  1. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    So, I've recently started watching the new HBO show Westworld - the one based on the movie from back in the 70s - and argh, I hate that this is where my mind goes whenever I start a new show, but here we are.

    So, first of all, I can't stress how much up my street this show is. It's exactly my aesthetic, and thematically pretty prototypical of the exact sort of program that I like to watch the most. It's great.

    But

    The show has some pretty stereotypical invocations of Native Americans, in the typical Western fare. Now, the thing is, this might very well be the point. The whole concept of the show is that the historical characters are actually just robots - characters in an attraction designed to entertain modern audiences. There's a whole metaphor for colonialism in there for be sure, and I'm pretty sure there's a point being made about how the experience of Westworld, however immersive, is still on a fundamental level a fetishized fantasy of the past, with the characters routinely objectified. Fairly sure there's a whole critique of the classic Western genre in all that.

    But, despite that, at the end of the day, you're still seeing the (albeit in-universe-fake) Native American characters being portrayed and described as "violent savages", or else fetishized as "brave/noble". And the show hasn't directly addressed that right on the head, at least not yet, which makes me terrified that this show is racist, and that by watching and enjoying it I'm excusing racism and the stereotyping of Native Americans.

    Now, normally when I encounter this sort of worry I just drop the show. I already dropped Narcos after a few episodes earlier this month for the same reason (and after reading some critiques online, which I earnestly googled after this take occurred to me).

    Although I haven't been able to find any critiques of Westworld as racist (yet), despite having not being able to stop myself from googling around them extensively, I'm still concerned. And while I would normally just stop watching the show... I... well. Not only has my Dad been excited about this show, and I want to watch it too to be included, this show is just... so very Me. Like honestly it's one of the most appealing show concepts for me personally that I've seen in ages, only the whole problem is that it's framed around Western tropes that are reknowned for being problematic (even though I guess that's sort of (maybe???) critiqued by the show but also not really/directly yet? It might just be subtext? Is that good enough? I'm not sure!).

    So please, tell me what to do here! Are there any Native Americans here who have a perspective on Westworld? If it is racist am I justified in continuing watching despite that (I know All Media Is Problematic, but...). I mean, if I wanted to do that how would I banish the "this is racist" anxiety, how would I not feel bad for liking the show. Should I not be liking this show? Is it bad that I like it? Help please!
     
  2. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    I mean even is there is that underlying theme that might be critical (is it?) it's still kinda making use of that imagery for effect and shock value. I mean people have been saying the same thing about sexual violence portrayals in the show (this makes me less anxious though for some reason?) and the writers responded with the fact that they were addressing that specifically through that lens of, "yeah, humans are shitty, that's kinda the point of what this show is about in this context", but I don't know if the same thing applies... to the native portrays, even if they are deliberately Not Actual Native Americans and are instead fantasy "western" robots used to create a narrative that is shown as being indulgent and open for the guests to exploit but idk! They are still using the imagery! So...
     
  3. evilas

    evilas Sure, I'll put a custom title here

    All I can say is witnessed, and I know the feeling. And that it definitely does not sound racist at all. It sounds like they're genuinely doing their best to address how shitty racism is.

    But if it helps:
    A movie I seriously love is Dodgeball: A True Underdog Story. It's an otherwise funny movie, but it is Problematic with its treatment of, among other things, lgbt stuff:
    There's a male and a female main character. The female main character is a girl who people assume is a lesbian because of how she throws balls and is really strong. A punchline in one of the final scenes is: she meets someone who turns out to be her girlfriend, makes out with her, stops, tells the male main character "I'm not a lesbian, I'm bisexual" and makes out with both her and him at the same time so the straight male protag gets a threesome.

    By all intents and purposes, I should hate it.

    I love that movie. I don't care about that scene at all.

    Bottom line: I don't think that the series is racist. But that's not the point. The point is, even if it was (which I don't think it is), you'd still be justified in watching it. Because you should never, ever beat yourself up over liking a thing. Doesn't matter whether it's good or bad, problematic or not, progressive or not, free thinking or blatant propaganda. If you like it, you like it. That's it. End of story. You have the right to enjoy it.
     
  4. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    But if it's racist then that'll be all I'll be thinking about while watching it, and also my Liking A Racist Thing would mean I'd be Doing A Bad to my brain, I wouldn't be able to appreciate it without constantly issuing mental qualifiers. The only thing where I've been able to accept (albeit critically) occasional possible racist stereotypes is with some stuff in Homestuck given that I'd already been such a huge fan for so many years before I saw that being talked about... but this is a new thing, so!!!

    A similar thing; I stopped listening to American Gods halfway through despite a cool story because Thor (edit: or wait was it Odin? Fuck I can't even remember) (an old man) had sex with a teenage young woman/somebody possibly not 18 yet, in a way where it was framed as kinda exploitative, and despite the fact that it was shown as being specifically sorta creepy I couldn't keep listening to a story where he was allied as one of the protagonists.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
  5. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    And like I say even if they are kinda critiquing it they are still functionally using racist imagery to create a familiar effect that re-enforces stereotypical imagery! In a flashback scene in this episode, a (robot) Native American scalped someone! Yes it was a robot but the imagery of Natives as "savages" was still there, and wasn't really critiqued in that moment, so... I don't know?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  6. TheMockingCrows

    TheMockingCrows Resident Bisexual Lich

    If you think it's racist, then acknowledge it's racist and go back to watching. A thing existing does not alter you as a person, and if you're aware there's problems acknowledge them and move on. the only risk is looking at something racist and saying "it's not because reasons" or some such which isn't a risk here since you're already aware of it. Maybe say "hey, this was great but this was a real problem for me personally", throw your two cents in the jar for others to be aware of by way of feedback, and carry on. Problematic media can be taken in and even enjoyed while still being problematic, be they fanfics or a tv series or a movie or game, and can even be enjoyed if there's still a glaring problem or a dozen. Bits and pieces can be enjoyed while still saying "Eh, this part was kind of :/ for me, but the rest was fantastic!"

    Enjoy your show, Josie.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    But isn't that already sort of what I'm doing here? I'm unsure if the framing means that this is a critique of racism rather than just racism. It might be the case that it is! I don't know!
     
  8. TheMockingCrows

    TheMockingCrows Resident Bisexual Lich

    I'm kind of confused then. You're expressing concern it might be racist or that it might be a critique of it instead. But more data is needed that can be gained by watching the show you already want to watch? ..I'm sorry, I'm probably just reading this wrong. tldr: I'm still saying watch the show because you want to watch it, final impressions of things are usually meant for after finishing it, and you'd probably have a clearer idea by then of which? if I'm still talking in circles and missing the point I'm very sorry.
     
  9. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    I don't think you're missing the point, I think I'm just confused and anxious, which is why I made a thread.
     
  10. missoyashirou

    missoyashirou Someone please give me a tiny dog to play with

    It could possibly be either or racism that will lead into a critique by the end of the season. It's only about two or three episodes in at this point, isn't it? From what I've seen from HBO, they often will have major critique arcs that will take an entire season at least (this was a pretty common for Boardwalk Empire, particularly the story of the corrupt federal agent who was racist, incredibly repressed, and just as fucked up as all the actual gangsters were and only calmed down when he lost everything and had to restart his life as a criminal.) It could be part one of an eight part "holy shit these park creators were fucked in the head when it comes to race", and it's meant to be skin-crawly now for that later denunciation to have full impact.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. Elph

    Elph capuchin hacker fucker

    ^ that
     
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