seebs, please explain why you're doing the thing

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by unknownanonymous, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. evilas

    evilas Sure, I'll put a custom title here

    (sorry if it looks like I'm answering in place of Seebs, that's not my intention)
    That's what moderation is for. Like. To help people calm down and stop them from saying shitty things.
    When the wildspyer rampage happened, the mods put them on moderation as soon as they could and immediately went into damage control, from what I saw. Yeah, they had done a fuckton of damage, but it got contained relatively quickly iirc.
     
  2. VJ Wocky

    VJ Wocky 34 Somnolent Void Seeks Perfection in Dissonance

    im not getting how you came to the conclusion that that can't be part of an outburst?

    i mean i get how it could be an instance of intentional, non-outburst, activity
    but i also get how it could be part of a particularly severe outburst

    is there a specific incident you are thinking of or?

    *edit* also:
    that sounds like it falls under the umbrella of an outburst
    maybe what is meant by outburst is part of the confusion?

    some outburst are...less like a temporary loss of control and more like a jekyll and hyde kind of thing where your whole worldview shifts and what Makes Sense in that state is VERY different than in a non-outburst state. you may still be able to do things deliberately but its not with the same ability to distinguish acceptable and unacceptable behavior

    and sometimes that state can last for days (speaking from personal experience)
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
    • Like x 3
  3. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So to clarify: I don't want hard and fast rules on that kind of response, because I want the ability to adapt to specific people.

    And I think we often realize that we can't deal with a thing entirely, but I think everything I've seen, "user is on post moderation" is enough to basically make things livable.
     
    • Like x 1
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, "make socks to bypass moderation" or whatever is... I mean, it may not be "an outburst" but it's well within the realm of things that people do while still fundamentally not in their right minds, and some of the users who have done that in the past are now pretty stable contributors.

    That said! Yes, we have absolutely not been good about dealing with stuff like that. We're going to be more willing to put people on moderation if they can't/won't basically cooperate, and more aggressive about recommending subforum bans to people who have a problem with a specific forum.
     
    • Like x 5
  5. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    I can see where you're coming from, but from what I've gathered, deliberate trolls like the ones you're describing either got bored because we all decided to shitpost in their presence, thus prompting them to leave, or eventually assimilated themselves into the community, making amends in the process. This has already been stated, but Seebs isn't going for a perfect system here. He's going for a system that works a good amount of the time, but also a system that's adaptable to the individual situations presented to it. Not even deliberate trolls who are here to troll and ride that high are going to be punished, even if, for all intents and purposes, it looks like they need to be, else they'll never stop.

    Re: deliberate and malicious attacks - I can see how it'd look that way, but that looks to me to be a very, very small percentage of what happens. Yes, there is effort that goes into making socks and posting from them, but in the long run it only takes a few seconds if your subaccount privileges aren't suspended (another plan of action for mitigating where and how people blow up and the damage that causes) and requires little to no prior planning, which is generally what deliberately would entail.
     
    • Like x 6
  6. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    Yup, my other account was made way before the drama happened, for RP purposes as my main one had subaccount creation turned off.
     
  7. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Pretty much.

    We have a lot of users here who have prior history of thinking other people here are remorseless trolls who can't be stopped except by force.

    And the thing is... I'm not absolutely unconditionally ruling out someday banning a person. I'm a dictator, not an escalator.

    But I'm not seeing any plausible circumstance where I think it'd help.

    Yeah.

    And the thing is, I've had the thing happen where something just goes wrong in my brain and I can't remember/see/understand a thing that's normally obvious to me, and I can spend hours working on a plan to do a thing that I would otherwise know is obviously stupid, but something just... clicked into place and I'm on rails and I can't question that part of the thing. And it's freaky as hell, especially afterwards when I'm trying to figure out what the hell happened. And it's not that, yes, I always secretly wanted to do this utterly pointless thing that does not advance my interests in any way; my brain just glitched out for a while.
     
    • Like x 6
  8. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    Of the troll, you can go look in the trump thread at the way whoever that user is likes to pop up and antagonize people that are upset about bad stuff going down in meat space. I don't have specific examples of the other thing because I only hear of this stuff happening second hand after the fact. Like I said, the behavior may initially be fueled by at outburst, but there's several steps from outburst to the the action of thinking "I want to fuck this person's day up" then going and making an account, then posting for however long under that account until a mod can swoop in and "do damage control" but by then there's a LOT more damage to control, and it ends up cascading out and hurting OTHER people that may not even be involved because the speculation train starts up and accusations get lobbed and MORE people get their OWN outbursts triggered and....

    Yeah. It just seems like too little too late to say "well we'll stop it and have a talk with them when we find it".
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  9. NevermorePoe

    NevermorePoe Nevermore

    fucking same.
     
    • Like x 3
  10. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    I can not tell for the life of me if the Trump Troll has integrated. I don't believe they are form that wave of those incompetent trolls from KF but i don't thing they're a regular member either. If their activity is in response to an out burst, then it's one they are taking out on uninvolved parties. The behavior I've seen so far involves them waiting for when something particularly bad in the politi-sphere happens and people start making distressed noises, and they will swoop in to fan the flames and make people panic.

    But yeah, the ban thing I don't want to say as like a thing to use lightly or even that it has to be done, just that you may need to consider not entirely removing it from the table if/when you encounter a person who is simply refusing to cooperate or work with other mod tactics.
     
  11. VJ Wocky

    VJ Wocky 34 Somnolent Void Seeks Perfection in Dissonance

    true, there can be several steps
    but, from my personal experience, that does not mean that stuff several steps later isn't part of the same outburst and under the same "can't stop because brainwierd"

    i mean the incident i experienced lasted about a week
    continuously
    as-in everything i did, during every hour of every day of that week, was fundamentally affected by the severe PTSD triggered state i was in

    when it was over i was able to look back and identify what i had done, why it was bad, and start to apologize and make amends
    doesn't mean i was capable of any of that while it was going on
     
    • Like x 4
  12. VJ Wocky

    VJ Wocky 34 Somnolent Void Seeks Perfection in Dissonance

    yeah, if it is an outburst then it sounds like it would definitely be on the very severe end
    unfortunately some CAN be so bad and so widespread that otherwise uninvolved parties get dragged in
    not sure if it is an outburst or not, but so far im...not seeing clear cut evidence that it is definitely for sure NOT an outburst. but then im...not confident me looking at the direct posts in question is all that great for my own health right now so i'll drop the issue

    maybe, for this specific instance, it'll have to come down to a judgement call on the part of admins/mods
     
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    With very few exceptions, I don't think anyone's really had the thought "I want to fuck this person's day up".

    These days, if someone's seeming meltdownish, (1) we turn off subaccounts (2) we stop approving new accounts until things are better controlled. And it hasn't been that bad. And yeah, there's that one user, and actually, they probably should be on post moderation at this point, and I don't think there's a specific reason they aren't except "don't have any reports in front of me to look at".

    But basically... What benefit is there going to be from doing anything past "stop it and try to prevent it from recurring"? Like, what concrete outcomes do I get from it that I want? Hurting them isn't useful. Deterrence is basically not a thing in general, and especially not when so much of what's involved is mental illness. The chilling effect on other people of the perception of possible deterrence is mostly a negative in this community. We have more people here who have been unjustly punished than not, I suspect, and a lot of them to a degree where it's genuinely traumatic, so.

    Basically, yeah. It's not absolutely ruled out, but I've seen nothing even close to a situation where it was necessary. I got one of the Farms people to leave by making a joking edit to one of his posts. Seriously, one post, one small edit, it was funny, he flounced. Wow.
     
    • Like x 3
  14. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    I think the account/posts haven't been reported because it's bad enough most people either bail or block when they show up- it's too distressing to interact with.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  15. LadyNighteyes

    LadyNighteyes Wicked Witch of the Radiant Historia Fandom

    Yeah, I have them on ignore and whenever they show up all I see is a bunch of other users telling them to shove off or insulting their trolling skills. I suspect a lot of other people do too, and that limits the number of reports.
     
  16. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    Same. I blocked the first time because that was right after the election. I don't entirely recall but I think they were suicide baiting as part of their trolling to people that were already in hard core worst-case-scenario-spiral/panic mode.
     
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    ... i think i see the problem here

    anyone able to identify what user this is about and/or where they're active or something?
     
  18. LadyNighteyes

    LadyNighteyes Wicked Witch of the Radiant Historia Fandom

    My ignore list is only three people long and I don't remember one of them, but I know "anonymous" is one who posts incendiary things and then deletes them.

    ETA: give me a minute and I'll check through the politics thread real quick.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  19. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Anonymous can no longer delete or edit posts, and also is on post moderation now. Thanks!
     
    • Like x 15
  20. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    Can attest to anonymous being one of those people. Though all posts I saw by them were more annoying than anything, I can see how they would have distressed a lot of people.
     
    • Like x 8
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