seebs, please explain why you're doing the thing

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by unknownanonymous, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Honestly, most of the time even people without particular disorders will not necessarily be more revealing of their true selves when angry. Someone who shouts slurs when angry may have learned them when young and be devoted to fighting against that upbringing most of the time, and lose it when out of control. Doesn't mean they genuinely believe whatever things, just that there's some of that in them that they may be fighting the rest of the time. Fighting your demons is not the same thing as trying to conceal them so they can do whatever they want without interference.
    • Like x 15
  2. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Ivy, you make good points. And I won't deny that I have a mean streak, it's just that I'm pretty consistent about arranging things to keep that from being other people's problem most of the time, and if I didn't seriously think that was important, I wouldn't need to do that.

    It's not so much "why would you think I'm mean" as "why would you think this was me actually trying to be mean for fuck's sake I'm much meaner than that". I can't be simultaneously so good at hiding my cruelty that I fool so many people, and yet also this bad at actually being cruel. If I were trying to be mean, the forum would have a significant body count by now. Like, it's actually sort of insulting to suggest that, if I were actually trying to hurt lots of people on a forum full of traumatized people, I wouldn't have killed at least half a dozen of them by now.

    ... which is probably not exactly a reassuring way to phrase it. Eh, I can't tell, mods will figure out whether it needs edits.
    • Like x 12
  3. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    That just comes off as #Edgy, Seebs. :P
    • Like x 15
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Eh, probably? But just think about it practically: How much damage could you do if you really wanted to, given all the long detailed discussions of vulnerabilities, and you were actually trying to do it out of considered desire, not just too emotional to think about things? Answer: An immense amount of damage.
    • Like x 2
  5. winterykite

    winterykite Non-newtonian genderfluid

    A "Don't cut yourself" joke here:
    • Hilarious
    • Inappropriate
    • Inappropriate but also hilarious
    • Like x 12
  6. evilas

    evilas Sure, I'll put a custom title here

    A "stop hitting yourself" bullying reference/self-harm joke here: we all end up crylaughing.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
    • Like x 8
  7. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    I mean, logically, yeah, probably a lot. If you knew where to hit people and what to say to do the most amount of damage. Yeah, of course. I'm just saying that actually like, taking the time to think about and talk about how much damage you could cause someone if you wanted to just makes me laugh, cause it's a serious thing to consider but at the same time it kind of just sounds like the navy seals copypasta. (Love ya Seebs, I say this all out of love).
    • Like x 6
  8. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    The lizards have a home. The townpeople weren't happy but they gave me moneys for stopping the zombies and the lizards from sinking their ships. I is off to the main city to wreak more mayhem in the guise of restoring order (I learned my diplomacy skills from @seebs :) )
    • Like x 10
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    It's a bit like the ticker-tape parade speech. Point is, it's really obvious that I am not actually acting out of significant malice, because if I were, I'd have gotten more results.
    • Like x 2
  10. Anomal(eee)

    Anomal(eee) Grumblepunk Gremlin

    Back to the trolls/spammers issue briefly: I had been under the impression that kintsugi's shitpost-antibodies were sufficiently mighty to make trolls flounce without any need to bother reporting their posts or whatever, but in hindsight, it sounds like some people have been genuinely distressed by them. (Which I feel sort of dumb for not anticipating, but I kind of enjoy the trolls finding out that the forum's immune system is primarily composed of inanity and old memes and didn't think about some users seeing the posts while they were in a bad place.) Going forward, should we assume that posts from Obviously A Troll Sockpuppet should be reported so they can be put on moderation and do the contain harm thing?

    This might sound like a really obvious question, but I'm actually still a little unsure of what exactly the "this post should be reported" protocols are around here.

    All hail the hero of the lizardfolk! :D
    • Like x 3
  11. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    In practice, "I think maybe mods look at thing?!??" is a good reason to report. We won't necessarily do a thing, but we might, and at least we get the option of thinking about it.
    • Like x 7
  12. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    Was really hard as a halfling rogue - can't hurt the zombies, so had to depend on my friends to do the damage while I ran around squealing.
    Is nice to have friends.
    • Like x 7
  13. Anomal(eee)

    Anomal(eee) Grumblepunk Gremlin

    thanks for clarifying! I'll use that feature now, then

    welp, in other news, I've found a new webcomic
    • Like x 3
  14. OtherCat

    OtherCat a being of mysterious happenstance

    (Late to the party but) To draw a parallel here, in my early teens when I started writing, I would do a lot of world building, then get frustrated because I didn't really have a "story" to go with all the world building. This would mean that periodically I would completely destroy whatever I was working on, notes, fic bits, whatever. I would have a similar pattern of destruction when I somehow ended up in a kerfuffle online. I was mostly doing these acts of destruction because of my anxiety, and I pretty much feel that my actions in the past while often a short term euphoric, (because I was getting rid of whatever was bothering me) were actually a very bad strategy. This is how I feel about the idea of "make Kitsugi read only and go somewhere else and start over from scratch." :\ A bad strategy.
    • Like x 1
  15. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Agreed. I get frustrated and burned out, but... I think this is still fixable. We'll find out.
    • Like x 5
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Look, we want you to be able to hang around and be social with people. We also want you not to regularly trigger other people or distress them a lot. The post-deletion thing is upsetting to people, because it makes for reality-consistency problems when it happens a lot. And the random quasi-trolling is really upsetting. So, you know. Play nice?
    • Like x 5
  17. Snitchanon

    Snitchanon What's a mod to a nonbeliever.

    You DARE ask for NICE PLAYING?
    • Like x 6
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yeah, pretty much.

    It's pretty simple. "Things are causing a lot of distress -> let's work on that."
    • Like x 4
  19. Starcrossedsky

    Starcrossedsky Burn and Refine

    Hey @seebs, on the original subject of this thread:

    I'm still really pissed at you. I feel like I was singled out as a problem user because I didn't comply with you sending me a PM to tell me to change my behaviour, and then you immediately went and did the whole thing that caused the Forum Deletion/Shutdown panic. I feel, 100%, like that interaction was a bad-faith excuse to have an example of users "dehumanizing" others that you felt was concrete enough to fall back on and do what you want.

    I do not retract my statements made at that time. I responded to your PM in a state of half-awake-and-pissed-off, but I maintain that you PMing me was out of line, for several reasons. The first is that whole "Kintsugi is not intended to be a safe space" mantra that, I thought, we had all agreed upon by implication as a part of using this forum. Having an admin step in specifically to moderate a single user's content runs extremely counter to the "you take care of your own experience" thing. The second is that it was posted in response to a specific thing in Riley's vent thread, and I felt like it was being treated as though I posted it in some really public, unmissable place.

    I acknowledge that my comments could be seen as hurtful, especially to the particular person named. (I do not retract my not-giving-a-fuck about this person being hurt.) However, it was not your place to try and make me behave in the way you thought was proper and appropriate via PM, especially in a situation where users "might" be hurt. If an actual user who did not want to be identified approached you in your position as mod/admin, that would be different. That's not what your PM implied, however, and thus it was not your place.

    (Also, remember that whole competing access needs thing? It applies here, because I have an access need of "not required to take care of everyone's emotions" for my own recovery. Behaving as you were trying to make me behave in your PM? Would definitely have fallen under taking care of everyone's emotional states.)

    I would like an apology for being used as an example. Even if it wasn't your intention, it was still what you did, and the vague comments you posted were more than enough to identify the matter to the couple of people I vented to about your PM before the Forum Deletion/Shutdown meltdown occurred. I also don't see the original comments as 'dehumanizing' in the first place; however, I acknowledge that this may be due to Sperg Exact Definitions. I'm not interested in wall-of-texting about it with you.

    In short: You were an ass, and out of line, and made an example of me even if you didn't name names in your Forum Deletion/Shutdown posts. Apology, please.

    PS for anyone who may go looking for the comment in question, since Riley deleted his thread when he left, it's no longer available. Even if I could recall the exact wording, I would not reproduce it, because it will stay between me and him, as something I said to attempt to console him during a depressive spiral, as fucking intended.

    PPS I am currently (still) blocking TSM for my mental health - if anyone wants me to see a thing in reply to this, please quote or ping me.
    • Like x 4
  20. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Okay, lemme start with the important part: I'm sorry. I was specifically trying not to single you out. It was a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back thing; there were plenty of other examples I thought were worse. But I absolutely didn't mean to single you out or blame you.

    But that I didn't mean to hurt you doesn't mean I didn't. If it's any consolation, this is one of the examples that made it really clear to me that I need to be on post moderation, because I persistently fail to see things that would hurt people, and that means I need someone else checking my work.

    I think you're forgetting a key thing: I AM A FORUM ADMIN. I don't have to go look at things to see them. I don't always even know where they are. People come to me with problems. And it is, in fact, my job to go talk to people and try to get things improved.

    "Is not a safe space" does not mean, and has never meant, "you don't have any obligation to try to be compassionate". To put it bluntly: Yes, you are obligated to care. So is everyone else. We can't enforce that, obviously. I don't even think it's possible for humans to live up to it all the time. But that is the point of the forum. "Not a safe space" doesn't mean "you can be an asshole as much as you want and that's fine"; it means "we will not necessarily take action against a thing just because it's upsetting".

    That is, however, exactly what happened, and now the many users who have depersonalization issues are totally aware that they must never risk coming to your attention, and especially must not ever ask you to change your behavior, or they will get extra attacked.

    That's a problem!

    And it is absolutely my place to ask people to consider changing their behavior. That is literally my job as admin. Not to try to "make" people behave in a better way, but to politely ask them to. Because I don't think you intended to hurt the people who checked in on leo's thread because they were concerned about him, saw your post, and got triggered. But you did hurt them, and that still matters even if it wasn't intentional.

    Did you not notice leo's assertion that, if I'd come to you in PM first before making a thread, I'd have gotten few complaints? People have specifically asked that I take things up in PM before posting more publically. That's why I do it!

    There isn't a requirement that you take care of everyone's emotional states. There is a requirement that you recognize and acknowledge that hurting people is generally bad, and that random third parties being hurt by what you do is an undesireable outcome.

    Acknowledged. I'm sorry; I had other examples and I should have either used more of them or none of them.
    • Like x 2
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