seebs, please explain why you're doing the thing

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by unknownanonymous, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. BaseDeltaZero

    BaseDeltaZero Shitposting all night.

    Bans aren't the only form of 'mod crackdown' possible. Having threads locked, posts deleted/edited, and even things like, say, being publicly called out in a mod post can also have a similar chilling effect, even if there's no risk of an actual ban. Not accusing you of any sort of misuse, but I think it's certainly a reasonable concern to have.

    Making sure everyone understands the rules and how they will be enforced is definitely a good thing, but ultimately, I fear it won't change the fundamental problem that some people disagree with what the rules should be and how they should be handled. While it is your decision and that must be understood, I think it will also be helpful to have actual feedback on what people think the rules should be. How the administration team chooses to take that feedback, is, of course, up to them.

    And I strongly suspect some people's aims will simply be incompatible, and a non-trivial but hopefully not too large number of people will be unwilling to compromise with... whatever the rules end up being, whether that's just a clearer status quo or something else. However, I think having out with it and just... having people with incompatible desires calve off is far preferable to just watching the forum shatter under the strain of competing goals.
    • Like x 9
  2. TheOthin

    TheOthin skipped to campaign 2 for the tieflings

    Locking individual threads is a thing mods are capable of doing. As is locking and replacing specific subforums that might have a lot of those.
    • Like x 2
  3. Zibanu

    Zibanu Well-Known Member

    So is this rule going to apply to admins as well?
    • Like x 5
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Absolutely. And one of the things we need is clearer discussion of basic practices for moderation. I'm reluctant to commit to an absolute ironclad set of rules there, because grace has been a really important part of making things work... But I absolutely want to prevent things like, oh, purely hypothetically, "admin is in a lot of pain and gets mad and starts yelling at people", because that was not good moderation.

    This is where it really turns into a thing: I don't expect people to agree with the rules. I just want to make it super clear that, whether or not you agree with them, they are the rules for this forum, and you're expected to abide by them in posts here.

    I hang out on forums that prohibit cussing. I think this is ludicrous and sort of offensive, but I don't cuss at people on those forums; I follow their rules while I'm in their forum.

    Which is why the current plan is that the rule, singular, is roughly "the other participants are also people and they matter". Without that, we can't do the thing at all. With it, we don't really need any others.
    • Like x 5
  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Well, yeah, that's the plan. I'm just responding now because at least a few of the specific posts are stating serious enough objections that I'm trying to get immediate responses and acknowledgements out there.
    • Like x 1
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, I usually try to wait until I've got things sorted before posting, but I've gotten a lot of flack for not announcing things soon enough, so I thought "hey i have a great idea why don't i tell people that i am thinking of doing things but don't know what yet" and actually it was not a great idea.
    • Like x 17
  7. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    This thread is moving far too quickly for me to keep up, I'm supposed to have activated my block site app for incognito, etc. @seebs, even if you've already answered these questions, I'd appreciate it if you could do it again in one post for us to look at and reference. Can you take the time to do this, please?

    That said:
    • What do you hope to achieve, or more specifically, prevent, with the rule?
    • Do you reasonably think the rule will prevent the behavior the comes from breaking it?
    • If no, do you just want a different avenue to open up for dealing with the behavior? (Such as actual punishment)
    • What will be the punishments associated with breaking the rule?
    • What will implenting the rule into the forum as it is now not have that an archive and fresh start will?
    • Just curious, but be honest if you can, how much has recent drama actually influenced this drastic consideration?
    • Like x 8
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    ... I was going to say "obviously", but actually I guess maybe it's not obvious, but yes.

    I am aware that Jesse yelling at someone was one of the recent things that made me think we needed to clear this shit up better. I also do, in general, make an effort to apologize to people I've hurt, because that's how I think we should behave, and it'd be sorta silly for me to claim the rule makes for good outcomes, then not follow it.
    • Like x 9
  9. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    Okay, the warning? Does not sound like a MAYBE warning, it sounds like a 'yeah the nuke is coming anytime, whooooo knows when!' And even after getting clarification in the thread that there's going to be some degree of continuity, this is. SO distressing and it feels so excessive, and I still don't understand WHY this disconnect has to happen before people can proceed.

    If there needs to be an undercity or whatever, can't it just be the subforums relevant to the problems that go there? Maybe put brainbent, tchgb, meta, and mmmmaybe braaaaaains in there? Because in fan town, like. WHY does it need to disconnect? WHY is it important that we have a gap between Old Existence and New Existence? I can't just flip through, like, the transformers thread anymore looking for the old flailing people did, or the old theories and meta posts, or any of the art people have linked? If it gets to stay at all, I have to dig down into an entirely different forum, because.... I still don't know why? And that goes for all the fan town threads too. Steven universe theorizing? GONE. Fanfic gripes? GONE. You want to go to general chatter and look through people's pictures of their pets? Well sure, but before X date you have to go to this OTHER section of the forum to find that Forbidden Content. Sure you can start new threads to talk about anything you want, but if you want to know anything anyone else has said before, you have to go digging down into an entirely different section of the forum. God help you if you're a new user and you don't understand why there's this weird disconnected dungeon that seems to have no reason to exist, or want to start a thread on a topic that doesn't seem to be around, but that people have already discussed back in the old days.

    And additionally, one last argument against switching sites entirely. What happens if you have, say, a 40-page PM of fanfic/fanart/meta ideas floating out there? Threads can be moved however that works, I guess. But can PMs? It doesn't seem likely to me.

    One last data point: I don't talk to that many people on here, and very rarely talk privately period. But within minutes of this thread going up, I got messages from two friends asking how they could stay in touch if this forum stops happening. People are WORRIED, and I think the way this was implemented was extra worrying.

    For the record, I like to think I don't often get that worked up on here. But even after getting clarification that kintsugi wasn't going to poof entirely, I still broke down crying in the car on the way home, and I'm off to split all over the walk-in freezer. This is maybe the only semi-successful social venture I've had in years, the other big social platforms people are using appear to be skype and discord, which... I can't. I can't and I'm still here frantically flailing over 'is there any way I possibly, POSSIBLY could?' This is what I have. And being suddenly menaced with nukes is PROFOUNDLY upsetting.
    • Like x 29
  10. Exohedron

    Exohedron Doesn't like words

    Some suggestions:

    1: Requesting input from people who aren't mods before announcing inevitable sweeping changes. Hate to say it, but the people chosen to be mods are cetrain type of people. I don't know exactly what type, but there are few enough mods that there's something that they all have in common that they don't share with the rest of the forum. We're not a democracy but panic doesn't need a system of government.
    2: Figuring out what the inevitable sweeping changes will be before announcing them. "Something will happen soon and you can't stop it" sounds like one of the worst things someone with anxiety could be told. Also, figuring out if said changes are actually inevitable: another possibly good thing to do ahead of time.
    3: Explaining motivation for said inevitable sweeping changes. Why is the forum going to get nuked? Oh, you're trying to implement a rule? Can that rule be implemented without nuking the forum? It can? Then why is the forum going to get nuked?
    4: Pick someone else to do the announcements. I'm going to blatantly violate "don't be a dick" here but the announcements recently have not met the basic PR requirements of "don't cause a mass panic in a small enclosed area full of fragile people".

    For what it's worth, I don't think the idea itself is absolutely horrible. If nobody can access the drama threads, even to look at them, then maybe we can stick our fingers in our ears and pray that out-of-sight is out-of-mind. If people can still view the drama threads, though, but not post in them anymore, well, then you might as well have just locked those particular threads and kept the current forum, banning people as necessary if they violate the one rule to ring them all.
    Upon further consideration, that doesn't actually sound so favorable of the idea. But I really like some of the wording there. I guess I think that if you're going to nuke the forum, then just nuking the forum isn't going far enough, but going far enough may be beyond the capabilities of the technology we have.
    • Like x 12
  11. emcapi

    emcapi Well-Known Member

    then just lock those particular threads, good fucking GOD.

    i have temporarily stopped being a lurker to announce that this is Fucking Dumb. kthxbai
    • Like x 12
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, what I want to get rid of is the thing where we have multiple users or groups of users who have decided that some other people Don't Count. (And I'm aware that there's a lot of assumptions about which users I'm thinking of as the targets. Those assumptions are not even close to accurate. A lot of the people I am thinking of as having been hurt by the lack of a clear rule and some kind of moderation support for that rule are the people who are super mad at me for not protecting them enough.) I do not think the rule itself will prevent the behavior, but I think that getting agreement will mitigate the behavior a great deal. Not entirely.

    I am not willing to put "punishment" on the table yet. Maybe if I really just can't make things better at all, but... I really, really, don't think so. So, not interested in "punishments".

    But consider the impact of post moderation for people who tend to have meltdowns. It hasn't been perfect, and we're still debugging, but the net effect is that we can have people who genuinely can't keep from doing a thing on their own nonetheless participate in the forum most of the time, without the thing affecting other people (other than the mods).

    Any implementation that doesn't have some kind of clear cutoff will not actually produce a state change; you need that "things have changed, this is new" transition. I can try to minimize the disruption, but there has to be a clear sense of change.

    How much has recent drama influenced this: Heck if I know. Probably some. Part of it, though, is not the specifics of any given drama, but rather, observed shifts in how drama plays out. We now have at least a handful of distinct cliques where anything that upsets one person in a group produces angry responses from several others. The number of people who have left the forum for fear of running into one or more of the cliques continues to increase, and that needs to change.

    And I'll point out: Several people who have left because they were afraid have expressed interest in coming back and trying again with some changes in place. So this is addressing an actual expressed need of a number of people.
    • Like x 4
  13. cyborgism

    cyborgism they/them

    • Like x 5
  14. devian

    devian Well-Known Member

    You have rather overcorrected here, yes.

    In the future, perhaps get someone else's input before the posting the thing? If nothing else as a sanity check for "hey if I post this thing in the current form, is it going to actually achieve the result I want, or is it going to cause unnecessary panic?"

    • Like x 10
  15. sidneyia

    sidneyia from TV

    Please at least wait until after the art trade on the 8th. I've really been looking forward to it.

    edit: changed my mind. burn it to the ground.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
    • Like x 2
  16. versi2

    versi2 ???????

    Just have a rebranding!

    Kintsugi 2: Electric Boogaloo
    Change the logo, make it look like it's been broken a little more and remended.
    Add some kind of intrusive "New Rules!!!" announcement that everyone sees, have a meta thread outlining policy going forward.

    Boom! You're done! Don't need to be any more destructive than that.
    • Like x 20
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Good points, I think.

    FWIW, I spent more time talking to non-mods than mods before getting started on this.

    But yeah, I'm gonna think about the announcement thing. I'll point out, there's some things here where I definitely fucked up the announcement. But I've also seen a lot of complaints that are 100% "bitch eating crackers" commentary, where people are pretty much saying "ah-hah, seebs said X, therefore seebs is lying and means not-X", and you know what? I can't fix that. And yes, having someone else make announcements would bypass it, until those people get promoted to Worst Ever, which happens on a pretty predictable schedule.
    • Like x 3
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This I believe.
    • Like x 1
  19. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    I'll try not to let my anxiety play into this but how exactly are you defining a clique here, and how exactly do you propose to "change" that? What I'm seeing is groups of people who have been targeted and hurt by another person or groups of people, reaching out to each other, and forming a bond that is conducive to sharing other hurtful happenings with one another.
    • Like x 7
  20. electroTelegram

    electroTelegram Well-Known Member

    cliques are not some boogeyman.

    people will naturally form smaller friend groups within a larger community. people naturally tend to develop affection for people they consider friends. anger when someone you care about is hurt is a natural human response.
    • Like x 22
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