So, it turns out, I am stumped

Discussion in 'General Advice' started by seebs, Feb 25, 2015.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Maybe this belongs in "fine imported drama", but this really is an Advice Request.

    Back in the day, I argued with someone called "spinfuse" on tumblr, later again under a new name "capitalismskills". (I do not know whether that is "capitalism's kills" or "capitalism skills".) And the first time around, some stuff she said really pinged my schizophrenia radar. And the second time around, some of the same stuff showed up and continued pinging that for me. And I solicited contact from people with more experience with schizophrenia, and got someone who's a successfully-medicated schizophrenic who does indeed see the same thing, and pointed out that there are a couple of other explanations, but that schiozphrenia does seem plausible.

    Problem: She's convinced that this is an attempt to discredit her. Which, to be fair, might not be a horrible tactic, except I really don't think discrediting her is something which requires attempts. (And actually, that belief might itself be sort of paranoid, maybe.)

    Also problem: She's an early-20s trans girl, and the most common early-20s onset schizophrenia is y-linked, but I think she's the sort to treat this as some kind of elaborate scheme to misgender her.

    So, basically: A few years back, I thought someone sounded like they were going schizophrenic, I tried to convince them (but mostly didn't try very hard because I was super pissed at them at the time), and tried to convince a friend, but backed down when they said it wasn't anything serious... and they died last year from being schizophrenic and untreated.

    My goal: Get spinfuse/capitalismskills to actually show these concerns to someone competent to properly evaluate them and consider them.

    Not my goal: Get her to think well of me. It might be a useful tactic, but it's not the goal, just one possible (but highly improbable) strategy.

    I am totally stumped, though. Can anyone suggest a strategy or approach that might get someone who knows her and is in a position to be listened to to at least consider this?
  2. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    Is paranoia/distrust common in schizophrenia? I'm afraid I'm not terribly familiar with it, but there has been talk that one of my brothers may have it. If I'm not completely off base, I may have some suggestions.
  3. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    "paranoid schizophrenic" is a pretty common form, and some of the symptoms (like ideas-of-reference, which is to say, thinking things are about you even when they can't possibly be) are pretty typically considered "paranoid".

    And yeah, paranoia/distrust is pretty common, and can get downright surreally weird. Reason my buddy never got treated was that by the time it was obvious to other people that he needed treatment, he considered the fact that they thought he needed "treatment" to be evidence that the government had compromised them.
  4. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    Sounds like my brother! xD

    So, to the best of my abilities, the only way I know to get through to them is to get them to trust you. If you are not their friend, you are a potential enemy. It is a very slow process, and you need to get in deep if it's going to be affective. Bringing up an accusation(that is how they will interpret it) like that will convince them that you were a spy all along! So, if you are serious about it, there's a lot of commitment involved(and quite a bit of reading the other person as well). I'm kinda sneakily good at getting untrusting people to trust me, so if you want further details, I can provide some pointers.

    The only other option I can think of would to get them forcibly commited, but I don't think you are in a position to do that.
  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I am pretty sure there is no way I could get them to trust me, ever. Like, even if it turns out they are having schizophrenic stuff, and it gets treated and they get all better.

    I was sorta thinking maybe to try to find a friend who could be convinced to take it seriously enough to think about it, but that seems... hard, because basically anyone who's friends with them will probably also hate me.
  6. Morven

    Morven In darkness be the sound and light

    I have a schizophrenic housemate, but frankly it's really hard. Especially for someone who doesn't acknowledge there's anything wrong.
  7. Mala

    Mala Well-Known Member

    Honestly this may just be one you have to let go. If she hates you and won't listen and you don't have any connections with her friends, there's not much you can do. If you try to go through her friends, it'll be seen as a behind the back attempt to discredit her. And the more you try to get through, the more resistant to the idea she'll get.

    It needs to be said but I don't think you're the right person to say it in this case.
    • Like x 4
  8. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    Yeah.... Honestly, the best you could possibly do is get someone to volunteer to be a friend. Or possibly try an alternate identity? You know, spy like double-crossing things that the person is paranoid about?
  9. Morven

    Morven In darkness be the sound and light

    But on the bad side, that's just playing in to their paranoia if they get caught or act suspiciously.
  10. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    See, I think that's just bad spying. You stick to the true parts. You are invested in this persons health and well being. You alter it a bit so it's what they are receptive to. I mean, I've done this a couple of times. I have always honestly been looking out for them. I just know it's a bit painful for me for a while because their health takes a priority over mine. But once you get their respect, they will listen when you say things that they disagree with. They won't just hop on the "oh yes! You are totally right" but it atleast gets in their brain enough so that it becomes "but if it's true?"

    But this is an investment, not a quick trick.

    Edit: I am not happy with this statement for reasons I can't determine. I may try to add a revised statement when I have enough spoons and can trust my judgement.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
  11. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    Oh! You could always just wait for an opening Seebs! It may not come but uh... So my brother in question is in jail currently. And when he got there, his "friends" stopped talking to him. He became vulnerable and in need. So he is very receptive to new influences, even ones he previously distrusted. I mean, not immediately, but when you have no friends and some one initiates a "hey I actually care" it's hard to resist.
  12. vegacoyote

    vegacoyote dog metaphores and pedanticism

    ... yeah, I do not see a way of getting through to her that doesn't have a high risk of backfiring spectacularly, at least from where you're standing. Like, even having started this thread is going to look really bad from the POV of someone with paranoid tendencies.

    I knew someone online who regularly googled his own name and handles so he could pop up in threads discussing him and tell people Important Things about his situation... he'd made the news, see, and he had to tell everyone why what had happened to him was really unfair religious discrimination and had nothing to do with his dwarf fixation globally affecting his ability to do his job... which he never really wanted, but then he saw Batman and it convinced him that he had no other choice but to go to lawschool and become a judge to punish evildoers and vampires.

    ... I am really hoping the reason we stopped hearing from him was that he got treatment rather than that he died. But from where we were, there was really nothing any of us could do... well, except for the forum mods, who eventually just banned his IP address.

    ... not sure this is actually any help. Especially since in his case it was pretty obvious to most people watching that he was only referencing external reality any more as a jumping off point to... wherever it was he eventually ended up. So actually I don't know if mentioning his situation in the same thread as spinfuse isn't just going to sound insulting... but anyway, similarities: 1) No meatspace access to person, 2) Person doesn't want help.

    Back to addressing the actual question... yeah, at this point, I don't see how you could do more than you already have without risking it turning into something close enough to an actual conspiracy that it makes her paranoia (look? actually be?) justified. :\
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
    • Like x 1
  13. Aya

    Aya words words words

    Echoing others here, I really don't think there's a good way for you to intervene here. It would be counterproductive to try to talk to her yourself. It might in theory work out if you could find a friend that she trusts and convince that person to talk to her, but given how little she thinks of you, even that has a relatively high chance of spectacularly backfiring. If someone she knows contacts you in good faith, that might work out, but the odds of that seem pretty slim.

    Sometimes there's just not much you can do.
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yeah. I think what I might do is just write up my reasoning and background on this (like, "this has happened before, which is why I am still talking about it"), post it, and figure that tumblr's drama machine being what it is, doubtless people will make a point of showing it to everyone to show off how horrible I am, and maybe someone will look at it and say "hang on, that's actually... not very horrible."
    • Like x 1
  15. Helen of Boy

    Helen of Boy Hugcrafter Pursuivant

    I don't know if that'll work or not, if they see it first they might just think you've gotten to them, if the paranoia is a thing. Hopefully that won't prevent them from getting help, and hopefully someone they know will twig to the real possibility.

    Just to be clear, since the original post isn't completely: If you are unable to convince them, or anyone around them, that this is a likely thing and they die due to lack of treatment? It is in no way your fault or failing. You are, in fact, trying very hard, all in all.

    Relatedly, not your fault that your friend didn't believe you and the acquaintance died, even if you "mostly didn't try very hard because [you] were super pissed at them at the time". Unfortunate, yes, but not your fault.
    • Like x 4
  16. Chiomi

    Chiomi Master of Disaster

    Are you aware of any people in her social circle who she likes and respects? The respect part is probably important.

    The way I'd do it is make friends with a person they actually respect (if such a person exists and is on tumblr) and establish myself as a friend who is good at research and interested in psych stuff, and eventually engage them in non-specific discussions of brain stuff. And then just kind of . . . make them come to their own conclusions. And use the fact that spinfuse respects them to get spinfuse to listen to them.

    Way easier to introduce relevant ideas to a person with an existing relationship than to actually start a relationship.

    But it'd still be a reasonably long-term project, and it may become harder to convince spinfuse that anything is wrong as time goes on.

    Also it's manipulative and violates the Categorical Imperative, which makes it . . . not ideal.
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    A thing which occurs to me:

    I wonder if I could get one of the friends of the guy I previously failed to convince to write a thing? Because that's a fundamental shift in perspective and relationship that might make the information More Credible. Like, "no, really, seebs sometimes spots things like that", from someone who doesn't have any interest in the tumblr drama.
  18. rorleuaisen

    rorleuaisen Frozen Dreamer

    If you did that, you still need it sent to a friend, I think. Just because you found someone who could back you up and tells a story doesn't mean she will believe it isn't just a more complicated form of discrediting her. More importantly, Friend of a Schizophrenic talking to another Friend of a Schizophrenic is very relatable. They can hear the story and be like "yeah, she does do some of that stuff". It will become a planted seed in a friend who is theoretically not going to dismiss it instantly because of paranoia. They then have at least an idea of what things to look out for and be wary of. Resources for helping her can be provided later.
    • Like x 2
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