Some Feedback

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by BlackholeKG, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    Okay, look. I like this website. It's helped me through some really tough shit and introduced me to a community that I really love. It was my favorite place to be through almost all of last year, and probably literally saved my life, which is why it hurts so much that these days the forums are more of a source of stress for me than anything else.

    There's a new drama every week. There's new suicide baiting and yelling and friends fighting every week. There's all this petty factionism and 50 page threads about subjects like moderation action and administrative impartiality. There's this confusing web of discourse and discussion about how to approach problems that seems to get thrown out of the window when things actually go down. I'm not sure what the current status of things are because I don't want to read through the latest 20 page behemoths that have sprung up to rehash the discourse will presumably escalate into a full on meta spiral thread in a few days. The very fact that I know that content exists and that I do not know it is a source of anxiety for me.

    The feedback I want to give is that the current state of the forum is somewhat untenable to its overall goal. The constant discussion revolves around how to ensure Kintsugi is a safe and productive space for recovery, for everyone. To be honest, for all the thought that has been put into that and for all of the discourse and argument, my experience is that in this regard the forums have been on a downward trajectory from the outset. The stress, the argument, the contention over moderation action, the inter-community strife; this does not make a healthy environment for dealing with emotional issues make.

    Its not good. I don't know who to trust; I don't know if I trust the moderation manage these issues; I've certainly disagreed with Seebs in the past, and apparently people are getting arbitrarily put on moderation for venting now? I will admit that I don't know the full details of that, but then I hardly think that I can be blamed for not knowing those details because everything pertinent is buried amid dozens of pages of complex back-and-forth and in that manner the forum as a whole seems to be doing everything in its power to drive me away from the community I care about. I still talk regularly in the Skype groups, but the forum as a whole is difficult to be around these days.

    Honestly, I'm not sure if the current situation can hold. Maybe some sort of permanent compromise is the only way to stop the community from continuing to be forced under strain. The amount of tension that is being caused by the current systems and problem solving process seems to often be causing the forum environment to be more unpleasant than the discourse itself de-toxifies, if you see what I'm saying. In that manner the process of running Kintsugi as this discourse-fueled "seek-perfection-through-endless-discussion" arena actually takes it further and further away from the ideal. I guess???

    I'm not saying I have a solution, and I suppose this is in a sense just needless complaining. I'm being a whiny bitch, probably. But its just so frustrating and distressing and anxiety-inducing. I want to stay up to date with what's happening on the forum but it just makes me feel like shit, but then not being up to date also kinda makes me feel like shit. Not knowing where I stand and worrying about "betraying" people if I disagree with them or making enemies or whatever makes me feel like shit. I love being here except when I see the weekly notification ding where somebody lets me know that the forums have once again exploded - and it is more frequent, now. Its been like an exponential increase - I mean even just last November it was only like once every two months or so. Now the forums have been a fighty haze for most of the past two months.

    So yeah, I really don't know what to do. But its just so fucking. Urgh.

    E: Plus thanks to my nature and personality I always get dragged into the fights somehow because I can't leave well along and screeeeeeeeeeee
  2. rigorist

    rigorist On the beach

    It's not just Kintsugi. I have seen the same pattern at numerous forums over the years.
    • Like x 1
  3. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yeah, we're aware that there's problems.

    The one thing I'd really like to ask is... like, maybe ask about things before making sweeping assertions about what mods are and aren't doing, or why, or whatever else.

    If two people insult each other, and I toss both the posts in the pear wiggler, you know what happens? Two people complain about how moderation is biased against them.

    We don't have absolute rules. We don't have a totally unambiguous definition of "flaming", or any definition at all. But if you make posts which are clearly intended to hurt people, we're probably gonna think about moving them somewhere so you can say the thing without the people you're trying to hurt having to read about it.

    I admit to being super curious as to exactly what you were told about people being "arbitrarily put on moderation for venting", because I'm not aware of anything I'd have described that way. Anyone put on moderation other than by me gets a 24-hour cooldown period of post moderation, and gets an automatic system-generated PM telling them about the temp moderation thing.

    Rigs, what's your interest level in joining the mod team? Because I'd be super interested in your opinions of things if you were seeing the posts that are getting tossed in the pear wiggler, not just how people talk about it when there's no way anyone can prove them right or wrong.
  4. Mendacity

    Mendacity I’m meaner than my demons

    Hey @seebs so re: posts being moved to the pear wiggled. Can I request that mods make a quick note in the thread posts are moved from that posts have been moved? I keep having disconnected from reality moments when I see people talking about shit I can't see :(
    Fucks with me man, unreality style.
    • Like x 7
  5. Mendacity

    Mendacity I’m meaner than my demons

    As a note I don't care about content of the posts, I just want to know that there WERE posts and I'm not crazy. That is my only complaint here. Also if this is the wrong place... oops?
    • Like x 3
  6. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    Maybe we should have absolute rules. The fact that moderation action is applied on an as-and-when basis that is ultimately up to mod opinion possibly contributes to this perception of arbitrariness - or, maybe even, results in a situation where mod actions are somewhat arbitrary. At the moment where moderation action has been enacted has hardly been consistent between situations, and its not been very clear what will result in such action being taken.

    I was referring to something that I believe happened earlier with Vivec having posts removed and placed on moderation by Beldaran for expressing dislike of Alix in a vent thread. I was under the impression that moderation action was meant to be applied only as a last resort unless requested, and much worse has gone under the radar before - let alone content in vent threads which is often expected to be salty - so I am somewhat confused albeit with not so much context.
    • Like x 1
  7. BlackholeKG

    BlackholeKG I saw you making fire

    Also this, because this also contributes to the sense of "what the fuck is even going on here".
    • Like x 1
  8. rigorist

    rigorist On the beach

    Talk to me after April. I'm too swamped with real life work right now to do anything other than play Jiminy Cricket.
    • Like x 1
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Moderation used to be a total-last-resort thing. People have spent two years yelling at me that I absolutely need to start moderating more strictly for fight-picking posts and insults and things, and I've said that the plan is to start doing that more, and not as an all-at-once thing, but as an ongoing process. And that's what's happening.

    Things absolutely do go under the radar, because no one happens to see them. Or at least, no one with mod powers. Doesn't mean they're totally okay, means we don't have all that many people on mod duty, and they're spending a large amount of their time getting insulted and yelled at and inexplicably this burns through a lot of spoons.
  10. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    We try to do this. In this case, the bulk of the stuff was never visible in the first place, I think.
    • Like x 3
  11. Mendacity

    Mendacity I’m meaner than my demons

    There was some but you're all human, so thanks!
    • Like x 5
  12. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    I think this should be a reminder to us to actually use the report button if we are are alarmed by something more, is that a correct assessment?
    • Like x 2
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Partially that. Also partially just a reminder that you can't really infer "moderation policy" from the existence of things which didn't get addressed by moderators even though other things did. There's been tons of posts that I'd pear-wiggle if they showed up today, but which I just ignored in the past. And I'm not super interested in a gazillion reports about old stuff, but basically, if you haven't reported a thing, the fact that no one's done anything about it shouldn't be taken as evidence of anything.
    • Like x 6
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