suicide baiting

Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by Skeletor., Feb 1, 2017.

?

what should be done in cases of suicide baiting?

  1. involuntary temporary moderation queue.

  2. involuntary temporary ban from subforum in question.

  3. involuntary permanent moderation queue.

  4. involuntary permanent ban from subforum in question.

  5. whatever the user who did it voluntarily chooses, maybe nothing.

  6. nothing, period. we're a hands-off forum.

  7. other. (comment below.)

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Wasn't aiming for funny, didn't actually remember for sure whether it had happened, but I've known you long enough to just sort of assume that you at least sometimes act in antisocial ways, and understand the importance of my policy to people who have such problems.
     
    • Like x 3
  2. Aqua Vitae

    Aqua Vitae put some honey and sea water by your bed.

    I'm thinking it was poor form to be using Khan as an example of "someone who did a bad thing once" when she's already under the spotlight and being victim blamed for this particular incident.
     
    • Like x 11
  3. Paradigm Shift

    Paradigm Shift Sleepy Girl Wants Love

    I don't have a stake in either side of this argument. I have avoided it. I am afraid of it. I don't know the full of it. I don't have strong feelings towards either party, I just clicked in here incidentally, but I'm going to come out and say that

    That is not at all what I take out of someone taking somebody's name, and then saying "It sounds like by what you call yourself you're a hurtful person", regardless of how you may or may not personally feel about ASPD.

    How in any way is that a statement of willingness to help integrate? It came across to me as saying 'Well you SOUND like you've done some bad shit by the name!' which makes it sound like you have a bias towards who you're willing to work with, whether this is true or not. That fosters a feeling of "You're welcome to integrate, but you are harmful" which sounds like a statement doomed to failure if you're trying to extend an olive branch.

    I am stating this in what I hope is a constructive way and trying to give no harsh judgments towards anyone, and I apologize if coming into this problem late and only getting part of the cake's slice makes me misunderstand it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
    • Like x 7
  4. Zibanu

    Zibanu Well-Known Member

    I have been going through the threads and a) at the time, there was a lot of talk of the victim "provoking" BPDAnon and "not helping" the situation. This is tone policing in response to a traumatic event and roughly the least useful set of words. You accused the victim of faking how hurt they were, and while you later apologized that is still a Thing that Happened. People accused them of being vengeful and only wanting punishment for punishments sake.
    Seebs you have consistently thrown victims under the bus when dealing with these matters, by focusing more on how the community is mistreating the perpetrator than anything else.

    NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT EXERCISE OF FORCE. Seebs almost everyone in this thread save for a few people have accepted your premise of "no punitive action." We are saying that mods carry social currency to end arguments, to comfort victims, and to, if necessary, close threads and monitor action.

    Very clear evidence like refusing to speak to the victim when it was requested of you because you were "trying to fix the problem," the problem being that people were mad at BPDAnon and no longer trusted him.

    This is true, and I apologize for that statement, it was fighty and emotional and I should not have made it.

    I am almost certain that basically everything I have said other people expressed.

    This, exactly, thank you. We can allow a victim to express their feelings without constantly going "don't start a public shaming!" If that starts I don't think it's good but I don't think the response is "hide your feelings because other people might empathize with you"

    Seebs please don't do this. No matter how you meant it you are referring to a victim's past negative actions in a thread sparked by her being suicide baited. This isn't cool.

    I am not saying anyone needs to be banned, or anyone needs to be punished, I am saying that our current state of things have produced a lot of hurt and need to be looked over
     
    • Like x 13
  5. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Okay.

    (INB4 someone tries to field this for me and it goes poorly.)

    I understand your point, but given the events of the last few days, I am a little tetchy about being held up as the example of "behaved badly" in this particular case. It is true. I don't know if it is completely relevant.
     
    • Like x 13
  6. Verily

    Verily surprised Xue Yang peddler

    (@ASPD Anon, that's brilliant. I'm thinking of autocorrecting "disorder" to "stat buff".

    "Why yes, I do have a nonverbal learning stat buff. Thank you for noticing.")
     
    • Like x 10
  7. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    Wow guys three of you ninja'd me in the fifteen seconds it took me to type that post. Please.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I just realized now that "Khan" and "ASPD Anon" might be the same person.

    And I didn't intend to use her as "an example", so much as "in responding to her, specifically, I was pointing out the context of my tendency to try to work with people rather than get rid of them".
     
    • Like x 4
  9. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    Man, you're all ninjaing me. :P

    That's what I was assuming, it just seemed awfully tactless at best. And that's pretty tactless, considering I barely have any myself!

    Yeah that was... really tactless. Statements like that in contexts like this look pointedly nasty. (Or, what Paradigm Shift and Zibanu and Aqua Vitae said better than my typed-and-erased attempts to explain.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
    • Like x 7
  10. Zibanu

    Zibanu Well-Known Member

    Sorry for that
     
    • Like x 1
  11. Aqua Vitae

    Aqua Vitae put some honey and sea water by your bed.

    Yes, same person.

    Unfortunately, I don't think it came off that way.
     
  12. ASPD Anon

    ASPD Anon Vagitarian

    We might indeed. :-)

    It's okay. I'm flattered by the reaction, but it's really not necessary. "A little tetchy" is not "me, on Sunday, having arrhythmic tachycardia in an airport." We're fine.
     
    • Like x 2
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Closing threads is, in fact, exercising force.

    This is a pretty egregious misrepresentation of my actions and motives. I was uncomfortable speaking privately to someone once I knew that we had serious communications problems, because I had established to my satisifaction that I was massively misunderstanding that user's writing, I suspected strongly that they were misunderstanding mine, and I did not want to make things worse.

    The characterization of "the problem" as I perceived it is also pretty thoroughly inaccurate.

    Probably in general true.

    It seemed to me to be specifically and directly relevant, but I have attempted to clarify that the relevance was pretty narrow.

    I tend to agree, I just haven't entirely reached coherent conclusions about where to go.
     
    • Like x 4
  14. missoyashirou

    missoyashirou Someone please give me a tiny dog to play with

    The comment about ASPD Anon honestly does dovetail into some of the feelings I've been having with the moderation as of late, and part of the reason why I do agree with the idea of considering adding more mods at least for the overnight situations. I feel like you and Jack have been burned out between the drama here and tumblr, if that's a fair assessment to make. I don't think it's intentional cases of cruelty, or that you don't care or actively want us to be constantly fighting or scared of the moderation, but between the silence in the middle of fights, the difficulty in contacting mods sometimes, and jokes like these, I do think that you guys and Beldaran can use some more assistance to lighten the load and help alleviate some of the stress that comes with moderating a forum for recovery.

    Also, while I agree with avoiding punitive punishments for the sake of just going 'NO BAD, YOU GET THE BAD CORNER', I don't think the listed option of 'involuntary temporary moderation queue' would be a bad idea nor do I consider it punitive for the sake of retribution. I know we're not supposed to bring up the other fights from this past weekend, but some of the problem does come from how tense everything has been and people falling into fits of panic because they're still stressed about Saturday or Sunday, and are sure if they're not on the offensive they're going to be Monday's victim. Or they want the fighting to stop so badly that they fling themselves down and make a massive fight, in the hopes of trying to draw attention off the arguments and martyr themselves for the sake of the board.

    With more mods and an involutary temporary moderation queue, you can have everyone still get to participate in the forums and it's not an obvious shame-the-naughty-child-box like locking someone to only the Advice and General Chatter forums, but also gives them a space to still have personal panic with someone can help. Plus, the moderation team (as of this time, as well as any potential future mods from what I would assume) have enough mental care experience to be able to help someone untangle their panic privately and monitor for when they're ready to be unmoderated in commentary again. You can even add a limit of days, like a two-day period that gets extended to two more days if the mod does not feel the person is ready to be out on their own again, that can be just removed if the spiraling ends within a shorter period of time. It's also something that victims and autistic members of the board can see as an active response to when a massive screaming row happens, or suicide baiting, or fall-on-the-sword tactics.
     
    • Like x 15
  15. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    My experience has generally been that people who are aware that they are ASPD or similar things tend not to be nearly as upset by "but you probably sometimes behave in hurtful manners" as other people might be. Because fundamentally, if you had the "oh my god people think i'm bad this is horrible" response, you probably wouldn't be even CLOSE to the diagnostic criteria for ASPD.
     
    • Like x 3
  16. electroTelegram

    electroTelegram Well-Known Member

    i think @Beldaran mentioned the people witnessing the situation (i think beldaran was referencing the BPDanon situation) getting swept up in the feeling that they should preformativly condemn the perpetrator's actions in increasingly extreme ways as a show of support.

    so not a critisism of the victims themselves expressing feelings and anger, but of the onlookers and supporters.

    (not saying support is a bad thing -- support is good. im just trying to shed light on stuff)
     
    • Like x 4
  17. Paradigm Shift

    Paradigm Shift Sleepy Girl Wants Love

    Even if this was the case, imagine how it'd look if I was the forum owner called in to help resolve disputes and I knew you had thick skin about something and I was just like "Jeez Seebs you're an ass sometimes" and then immediately thereafter "And that's why I am willing to help!" I'd look like a two-faced jerk even if you took it at face value and harmlessly. I am paraphrasing what you've said but I hope it gets my point across.

    It looks bad to your extended audience (I hate to call the forum crowd this), which you do have to contend with when a problem is big enough that so many people are concerned by it that this thread's surging through pages like a typhoon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
    • Like x 9
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yeah, I can see that it would look bad. I guess ultimately it comes down to "yeah, it was probably thoughtless, oh well", because I'm not super motivated to try to Fix The Thing when it seems that the person specifically affected is able to accept the clarification as to intent at face value and leave it at that.

    I think I'm currently leaning towards the general idea of "have more people doing moderation", still thinking about implementation choices.
     
    • Like x 8
  19. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    TO BE CLEAR, I'm not a mod, in case you thought I was.
     
    • Like x 4
  20. Xavius Emeritus

    Xavius Emeritus Suit Monkey

    At that point, I suppose the real question is who is impartial, active, and calm enough to have that permission? Not to mention generally well-respected.

    EDIT: Also, from my main screen

    @Beldaran SURPRISE YO I THINK or was this not just SUDDEN MOD PRIVS added? Because I will laugh if Seebs gave you mod just as you were saying you weren't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
    • Like x 7
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