Discussion in 'The Undercity' started by Skeletor., Feb 1, 2017.
I'm definitely going to consider it though if that means anything to them.
i was writing this as i noticed cA pinging me in riley's thread, so i'll just keep this response here i guess.
i suppose i'm the one who directly pointed to the likeliness of a connection between alix and A Crow, here:
linked post was a conversation i had remembered seeing in alix's vent thread, where they said they were self-sabotaging in a positive way by letting yall know that they had made a plan to make people & their friends hate them, and when it was disagreed that people would Hate them, they immediately went "what if i became a neo-nazi?"
in my understanding, the appearance of a neo-nazi after the recent events may fit the pattern of them doing extreme things in order to make people hate them like they had said they planned to, since feeling hated was/is apparently a thing they want when they feel like they have been feeling recently.
of course, this is speculation and you're closer to alix than i am, so i'm not gonna Insist they were A Crow. that's just my reasoning for the post i made.
I mean, the "what if I became a neo-nazi" was less serious and more a....joking extreme. and Alix only does extreme things to make people hate them when there's a serious fight going down, because for some reason they seem to feel a need to stop people from hating or being mad at others by making people hate or be mad at them. I'm not super sure why they feel the need to do that, I think it might have something to do with their home life and circumstances there and a feeling like they need to protect people they care about and that's the only way they can think to do it, but Alix and I have briefly discussed this before and the above thing--feeling a need to stop people from hating or being mad at others by making people hate or be mad at them--is, in fact, why they do the thing. A Crow doesn't fit that pattern. of course, we never really talked about WHY Alix feels that need or how to circumvent it, so I think that should be a discussion, but yeah.
....and then immediately after making people hate them or be mad at them, they spiral into "I've made everybody hate me, I did a bad thing, I'm horrible, I need to go."
but thank you for explaining your reasoning.
added point from Alix: they would like you all to know that if the original post was from them, the original post would have explicitly stated it was them, so that people would know it was Alix and would know to hate Alix. (side note: every time they've suicide baited they have, after a point, told everyone it was them the whole time, so I believe them about this.)
To be honest a crow (original flavor) read as an attack shot out during what was perceived as a moment of weakness. Might not have happened if there was no infighting but probably would have anyway.
No matter what people think needs to happen when suicide baiting happens, no matter the favored mod response,...
I think we really fucking need more mods. For real. The current workload has been stated to not be sustainable for the current mod team and even if it was, IIRC all of them are in a single timezone. Eurasia and Australia primetimes are basically complete anarchy. There's no way to get a mod response to... anything, really, during certain timeframes and it's fairly worrying. It literally doesn't matter what people would prefer to be policy if we have no one around to do something. Thread freezes, subforum bans, moderation queues, all of those require more people being around to manage the workload and cover more timezones.
Seconded. Even if the other mod(s) just freeze a thread or hide posts and leave it for seebs to review. And I think the community would be fine with whoever @seebs trusts enough for it
For reference, I'm crossposting this from my vent thread but with less... flavor. You'll get mature mahina, don't worry. :-)
I feel like there's an assumption among the general population of the forum that everyone who trickles in is at, soon will be, or is past a certain point in their recovery. The certain point being stable enough to not take something like a suicide bait seriously and actually attempt. I feel like that is a shortsighted assumption to make, and I feel like an assumption that everyone will always be past that certain point in recovery (since this is a forum full of brainweird of every flavor) is even more shortsighted.
The solution to a history of suicide baiting cannot be a hands off approach. It cannot assume good faith in the perpetrator and be a voluntary approach. It just can't. Both of these things open the door wide for it to happen again and again and again and people who may really need this place are not going to feel safe coming back. In the end, whoever is doing the baiting, be it Alix or somebody else, in the end they don't have to accept any help. In the end they don't need to listen to anyone willing to pick apart why it happens. In the end none, or very few of us, are professionals and in the end our words are ultimately meaningless if the perpetrator chooses to regard them as such.
If you all want an example of someone who's not at a certain stage of her recovery, here you are. If it wasn't for my absence during this specific instance and my anger, I probably would have taken the bait. I seriously consider attempting at the drop of a hat and being pinned a horrible abuser by someone I don't even know, let alone talk to, all because I'm aligned with someone else or arguing with someone else is prime territory for getting to me to consider or follow through on an attempt. And I don't want Alix to come back. I'll gladly ignore any accounts they may have but I feel a little less comfortable here than I did before knowing someone who told someone they deserve to die is coming back to largely open arms. I'm sorry I'm not as forgiving as all of you are.
I am not interested in telling @seebs or @jacktrash how to run their website, but I will make a plea to please prioritize victims in this kind of situation and do something a little more about it. I don't know what that vision is for you, but I want something different than what's happening now, and I'm sure others do given the state of the poll currently. If you're dead set on as being hands off as possible, may I suggest a temporary ban from the vulnerable subforums (ITA, Holler Closet/Brainbent, etc.) and a PM to the person doing the baiting detailing the what and why of what's happening and maybe even making a TCHGB yourself for those capable in the community of talking to them about it, so that the rest of us can avoid it. I may also suggest harsher punishment such as a temporary full-forum ban in the event that the perpetrator shows no remorse and refuses to partake in the argument island thread. I'm sure the community itself would like to be as hands on as possible in terms of taking matters into their own hands for debugging the situation and trying to prevent it in the future, but I think mods and mod volunteers need to make sure that it doesn't keep going for an unacceptable amount of time where community can't forcibly stop it.
You have my vote for more mods to cover the time zone bases. You also have my extended hand in volunteering to help out whatever approach you choose to take, as long as it changes.
Pretty much that entire thing is stuff that's been said before during other incidents, so presuming that no one else here has been tempted to take the bait when baited isn't quite on. There is also a bizarre assumption that the mods are hands off. No punishment =/= no mod involvement.
I mean no offense, but it's kinda presumptuous to assume that everyone who has responded is stable enough to be in danger of taking dangled bait. I personally had a close call a couple of days ago despite not even being a direct target of a person's suicide commentary. I apologize if that wasn't what you meant with your words, it's how I interpreted them.
Also I'm a little unsure what you want from the mods when it comes to prioritizing the victims? When shit goes down, damage control to prevent further escalation should typically be the first response I think.
I'd just like to add that in this particular case, I can... understand how alix ended up in this place, even though I definitely don't agree with the things they did and I'm still pretty ticked at them. But I could see the stress factors at play and could feel things ramping up and was braced for things to get nasty. But okay, when it was the 'ugh' suicide baiting and threats, even after looking back over the situation, I still have no idea what set them off. The thread was about pixels and makizushi having a fic and someone who was refusing to let things go, and in just over a page pixels was getting accused of hating autistics and people with bpd, and then things were about how ray's everything is this forum's fault, and people were being called brain-damaged freaks, and then we're off into suicide threats, etc. This incident was something that you can kind of see coming, and the explanation from cedar helps explain some of the things I didn't get, but that other blowup came right the heck out of nowhere and totally blindsided me, and it still leaves me kinda on edge not knowing what could set something like that off again.
I'm on board with the mod response being pretty tailored to the situation, and staying away from authoritarian measures, all that. I'm not a fan of making someone pay and punishing them. And I'm fairly sure that at resting state, nobody here is going to try to make other people kill themselves. I don't have any novel thoughts about the immediate response. But after the fact in these situations, I'd really appreciate it if the person responsible for the suicide baiting made a serious effort to go back in and untangle why this happened. It sounds like that's been happening in private for this one particular incident, but I don't think the other people here would have a clue what was up if cedar hadn't helped explain. And I'm still totally at a loss for how to explain the 'ugh' spiral. I don't want to say people are obligated to go into why they did the thing, but I'd really appreciate it if they did it, somewhere on the forum, in their own words.
iirc Alix is friends with the person pixels and makizushi were talking about so I'm guessing it was another case of "defend my friend by making them hate me instead"
I like this, but I think that rather than posting their full thought processes, for the most part it'd be fine to just say something along the lines of 'I've worked through this and understand why it happened now' because yeah, a lot of people may not be comfortable publicly posting the various parts of their thought process that culminated in the meltdown.
I do a thing when I'm going into a spiral or dealing with the aftermath of it that I call the 'Why Game', where I sit down and ask myself Why for every single step until I track it back to the actual root issue.
To be fair, it is an easy mistake to make, since at present i see absolutely nothing of the mods 9 times out of 10 shit hits the fan and... idk. It feels like the mod presence is incredibly limited. Kinda like 500 people in a single lecture hall taking a test with just one teacher to enforce a no-cheating-policy, versus 5 people in a small classroom retaking an exam.
I'm not saying we absolutely need enough mod presence for it to feel absolutely like the latter, but it should not feel like the former.
I mean, I don't even remember what happened with the blowup with the ugh account, so I can't really help there. it might be a similar situation, I don't really know. but that said, Alix has a really hard time figuring out what triggered them into doing something and why they did a particular thing, and also struggles to remember things that happened when they were stressed, so they may not remember why they did it either. rereading the thing might help, I don't know, but....
oh. yes, that would make sense.
also....I am also a person rather vulnerable to suicide baiting and such. it distresses me to see suicide baiting even when it's not directed at me. so I'm not exactly okay with Alix's actions here! but I'm also not a fan of the "make them pay" mentality. I think if some people talk to Alix about what happened and help them pinpoint the triggers and everything that led up to the blowup, then ways to prevent it happening again can be figured out. I mean....once you know what causes a meltdown, it's easier to figure out when one is coming on and start doing stuff to prevent it. last time there really wasn't much focus on figuring out why the thing happened, and I think that's part of what led to it happening again. and yes, Alix has told me they have trouble pinpointing things that lead up to stuff like this and were going to ask people for help with figuring it out, so.
also, I'm not sure forcing someone to partake in an AI thread is something I want to see. with anyone. ever. if someone doesn't want to partake in an AI thread, that's their prerogative and I'm not comfortable with seeing someone be forced to participate in it. and "partake in the thread or get a full-forum ban until the nebulous we feel that you are ready to return" feels like an attempt at forcing the person to partake. not to mention I'm not sure what an AI thread accomplishes at this point. Alix is asking for help and they've said they're going to apologize, so when they do, I think they should be allowed to choose where the thread trying to debug what happened goes.
Ha! Yeah, that thread was a trip. FWIW all I feel like I needed in a situation like that was the freedom to tear the person a new asshole and suggest they go get fucked it in. People running in like Filch going "I WANT TO SEE SOME PUNISHMENT" would have been waaay overblown in that situation, but every drama is different.
oftentimes i think mods do stuff behind the scenes but it would be nice if mods posted a "im working on it behind the scenes, but you have been heard and the situation is being handled" because otherwise it feels like nothing is being done.
okay so like i have a question. and tell me if this just plain wrong
if my friend wants to borrow a sharp pair of scissors for an art project, i give them to him, and then he uses them to cut someone's finger off... is it unreasonable for me not to give him the scissors the next time? if he wants the scissors again, and i think he has grown and changed, and he cuts someone's finger off yet again, is it THEN unreasonable for me not to give him scissors anymore? where's the line? or do i just allow someone to cause harm as long as i or the majority of others believe that he's changed? like
"look, man, you have to stop cutting people's fingers off"
"YOU'RE NOT MY DOCTOR YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO"
"oh shit my bad"
agreed with this, also. like, it kinda feels like there's been virtually no mod response on this, and that does bother me. I think Khan mentioned getting a PM from Seebs about a request from her regarding....one of the situations over the past few days? but outside of that I haven't heard much.
I mean, obviously you can't give someone infinite chances, but that's.....not what I'm suggesting here? I'm suggesting a debug attempt to help Alix figure out what happened and why and how to prevent it in the future, because this is the second time this has happened, and the first time no debugging happened at all. if we debug and it happens a third time, well, that starts to signify a bigger problem, I think, than just not knowing how to handle oncoming meltdowns. also, like, if your friend has figured out why he cuts off people's fingers with the scissors and has taken measures to prevent that, which is what I am suggesting happen here, then yes, I would give him the scissors again. it's not about 'believing someone's changed'. it's about knowing that they have measures in place to prevent the thing. and if they don't use those measures, then yes, it's gone beyond a place where you continue to give them the scissors.
It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be. The thing is, you aren't in charge of who has scissors. There are ways we have of trying to make sure the people who need safety scissors get them, but no one is getting kicked out of art class because the class was specifically made to be available to people with issues handling scissors safely.
Kintsugi is based on the premise that nothing anyone can do or say makes it okay to treat them like trash. By logging in, you affirm that you understand this to be the foundational premise of the community. More on our community philosophy here.
Separate names with a comma.