teenagers scare the living shit outta me (vent/advice thread)

hooOOOOO boy
some of you may remember, like, a year ago, when I made a thread about my little sister and my mum and the absolute clusterfuck that is the their relationship
for reference, the players:
Z, my lil sis. literally about to turn 17 as of this post. into makeup, fashion and feminism (and youtubers). has general anxiety disorder, depression (I think; she's on antidepressants but idk if she's diagnosed with it), shades of sensory processing disorder that affect her eating habits, and general teenage angst. moved from Australia to the UK with the rest of us about 10 months ago. has been bullied and had trouble making friends all her life. finally had a decent group of friends (albeit ones that went to a different school) riiiight when my dad got a job offer in the UK. had a boyfriend, C, for a couple of months in 2015 before he broke her heart and maybe coerced her into sex (unclear on actual events, but she has nightmares about him still). got with another guy for a week, got back with C for a week, was broken up with by C, started dating T for like 8 months, realised T never actually loved her and wasn't invested in the relationship, was single until a few months ago when she started a LDR with S. S, for his part, seems like a decent guy. She stays up all night talking to him and her best friend, B. OH yeah B is important. B is essentially Z's moirail, if either of them had read homestuck. Except B has been paleflirting with another girl lately and Z is having panic attacks about it. Did I mention she has a lot of panic attacks?
Mum, my...mum. The 2x anxiety/depression combo comes from her side. Mum's flared up pretty badly this past year, as her mum's health went downhill and we prepared to move. The fact that Z is not quiet about how much she hates it here does nothing to improve her condition. Mum is sincerely putting a lot of effort (and money - they're visiting Australia for a month in July, ostensibly to deal with my nan's estate but really so Z can see her friends) into Z's happiness, but a year and a half of unbridled teen angst is enough to wear anyone's patience thin. The fights are getting worse. I happen to be very close to my mum, so I'm probably unfairly biased towards her - also, I too had bad depression and was a shit to my mum and can now recognise how much she goes through with it, and it frustrates me that Z doesn't see or appreciate that. But I also know it's because teenager. But. Bleh.
Dad. Hahahahahahah. The further my dad stays away from Emotions, the better. Z gets her temperament from him (well, it's a combo of him and my mum's dad, and the less said about that guy the better). They butt heads a a lot. They get on really well, when they're getting on. Dad gets even more frustrated than mum, and he's scary when he's angry. Z is legitimately scared of him.
Me! I'm 22. I'm confidant to both Mum and Z, more the former than the latter; Z mostly talks to her friends, at 2am. She doesn't sleep, then she stays in bed all day.

Oh, and it's Z's birthday tomorrow. She's already resigned herself to hating it (yes, she said as much to me.) Mum was planning a trip out to buy makeup and clothes but she's decided she's going to stay in bed all day (yes, she said as much to me.)

Basically, those of you who are often around teenagers: tips for not losing your goddamn mind? And also I'm gonna use this thread to vent without necessarily needing/wanting advice, but sympathetic voices are always welcome.

 

sounds like a volatile situation! if it might be any help to you, I'm around your sister's age (although not a girl) and also have anxiety and depression and sensory processing shit and insecurity about people whom I care about not caring as much about me. probably also teenage angst, I can't tell very well from the inside. and as I am in high school I do spend a lot of time around teenagers and their bullshit. so maybe if you, like... have questions about what your sister does? like, "why the hell would anyone do that?" type thing, maybe I could try and offer my perspective as someone a little closer to her situation than you are? or if, idk, you'd like to talk to a reasonably calm teenager for once or something like that. we're not all complete shit. also personally I would appreciate your views on teenage behavior as someone recently aged out of it!

 

Yes that sounds good. I do not have time to think of questions right now, but yes, thank you :o

 

@esotericPrognosticator oh hey i just thought of something actually! Z feels like any time mum talks to her, she's being attacked. It makes it really hard for them to communicate. Any thoughts? Ways of phrasing things/approaching tough topics that will hopefully not get her guard up?

Also, general requests for things that might coax her to get out and about. She's suffering from both depression and sleep deprivation from staying up all night, so getting her out of the house is a struggle, but as much as she doesn't like it, she really needs to get out and socialise.

 

As someone who did suffer both of these as a teenager in school I...am not sure how much you can do.
Because I know in my case, I didn´t go out and socialize because I was already oversocialized/had all my social spoons drained in school. And forcing her out more might very well make things worse, so I would suggest maybe trying it during the school holidays, after she´s had a few days to recuperate.
Should note I´m seebs suspected autistic, but even your average introvert can have their social spoons drained by what I remember as a normal school day. Especially one with anxiety giving them less spoons to start with.

 

Yeah, that's the other problem. She's not currently in school. She was at beauty school two days a week for about three months, but she hated it by the end - she didn't get on with the other kids and the days were too long.

I know I can't make her go out and do things, but all she does at the moment, seven days a week, is lie in bed and watch Youtube and wait for her friends to wake up. And it sucks being in a strange place, I know that, but ... I just want to help her, and I feel so helpless.

It was her birthday today. She didn't like any of her presents. Mum was going to take her out shopping for new makeup and a birthday outfit, but she said she was too tired. She talked to S, and now she's asleep.

 

I´m it´s got to be awful to feel helpless but I would really recommend not badgering her about it. Definitely keep offering to do things with her, but understand that she really seriously may not have the spoons. I know from being in her place that being badgered about going out just makes it more of an unappealing spoonsuck.
By the way is she in any kind of therapy? It sounds like that might help.
-sends hugs-

 

Thank you for hugs ... Yeah, I know. That's the worst part! I know! I remember it! And literally the only thing that helped was time (well, and judicious application of therapy and medicine, but see below.) But my parents, my dad in particular, are breathing down her neck, and she's getting more withdrawn and sad and lonely because all her friends are half a world away, and she doesn't have anything like school that would at least give her something to get out of bed for every day and ... yeah. It's not surprising she thinks things are hopeless, because right now they kinda are. And it won't get better until she's ready to make it better.

She has a therapist and a psychiatrist, and she's on medication. She's pretty open about the fact that she doesn't want to talk to the therapist and she's not interested in the coping techniques. It seemed like the meds were working for a while there, but she's plateaued.

 

if you could be a little more specific about what things your mom says that she interprets as attacks, that would be nice. like, if it's "how are you doing today, honey?" and she replies, "god Mom get off my back," I can't really help you, because that's probably a level of hostility insurmountable via approaching her differently. but if it's specific things she takes umbrage at, I might be able to get behind her motivations a bit more. a little bit of clarification about which particular tough topics you'd like phrasing advice on would be helpful as well. just generally I'd say she feels attacked because she's oversensitive to what she perceives as criticism, but I can't speculate as to why with my current knowledge of the situation.

can I ask why you think she needs to go out and socialize? something that really annoys me (and probably annoys her too) is when people insist that they know better than I do how much socialization I need. I'll get the amount of socialization I want, thank you, and if you think that's not enough, that's too bad. also are you sure that her sleep deprivation is deliberate? even staying up all night it shouldn't be difficult to sleep during the day, since she doesn't have many obligations, so I'd say it could may be depression-induced insomnia. which unfortunately there's not much you can do about. also having been in that stage of depression where you don't want to do anything, being prodded to leave and do things is probably really irritating to her. she doesn't want to, she doesn't need to, and she certainly does not have the energy to. that might be the cause of some of her resentment. that said, yeah, it's important for her to have something to look forward to. it doesn't have to be out of the house, necessarily, but having something enjoyable instead of just bearable will help her a lot. so I'd say make it clear that you and your family are willing to take her to do things she might like out of the house (like the make-up buying trip you mentioned), but don't push her into doing them, let her decide by herself. and if she expresses a desire to do something, try and help her if possible and certainly encourage that desire. I'm afraid there's not much you can do if she's determined to stay depressed, unfortunately. like her not being interested in therapy is a bad sign, but not something you can do anything about. :/

 

I'll answer you properly in the morning, but my anxiety won't let me sleep until I say that I'm not prepared to argue about whether she needs socialisation or not.

 

is it possible that it's just the one specific therapist that isn't really working for her? i know when i was a teen if one thing was awful it felt like all of the same thing was awful and i certainly gave up on things fairly easily. but she could just have a therapist that isn't really working for it, and whatever sort of therapy she is getting may just not be working for her. might be worth pointing out that there are other therapy options, or just letting her know that she could switch therapists if she'd like to.

 

That's....definitely a possibility. I've really gotta sit down and try and talk to her about it. She gets pretty defensive about a) therapy, b) education/a job (Dad is convinced she needs to get a job, which I think is not the best idea for a number of reasons, but having her own source of income would be a confidence boost), and c) getting Out and About.

@esotericPrognosticator , er, sorry if I came off a bit grumpy there. That's a conversation I've had loooooooots of times. My thinking is, the happiest I've seen her while she's been here was when she did actually have a friend for a short time! Z's a really tactile person, and while her friends back home are doing their best, she needs physical affection as well, and from someone who's not her mother or brother. She had a friend at beauty school for a bit, and that was really wonderful....but then she got in a relationship with S and said friend started getting weird and invasive about the, uh, intimacies of their relationship. So that kinda fizzled out. So, I'm trying to help her recapture that, hopefully without the weirdness. I do know she doesn't do well with lots of people at once, so finding her somewhere where she can meet people without being overwhelmed is rough. Plus she never feels like going out, which I get, but I suspect she has the same problem I do: the concept of going out is way worse than actually doing it.

On a positive note, even though she didn't like any of her presents, we had fun at dinner

 

Thank you for elaborating on the socialisation thing - I've been sitting here like 'okay, but she obviously has friends, and Bird isn't the kind of person to think that online friends aren't real because otherwise he wouldn't be dating mushroom, so???'

Do you happen to live near anywhere that has cat cafes/can feasibly get to one? I know they've been slowly opening up all over Britain, and if she likes cats that might be a great way to temporarily solve the physical affection thing. (I get why you also point at people for that, but you have to take time to get to know people, whereas cats are at least sometimes like 'hey pet me. thanks. zzz')

Re: sleep deprivation: I don't know if you already know this or not (and so am not meaning to be condescending), but anti-depressants can absolutely cause insomnia - it's especially noted in SSRIs, but basically any psych med can fuck with your sleeping. May be worth talking to her about that, especially since you've said her meds have kind of plateaued - see if she feels up to doing the medication dance all over again for hopefully a better result?

Spoiler: a note on medication

When I got taken off SSRIs temporarily for insomnia, they put me on mirtazapine to make me sleep more - I'd strongly anti-recommend that, if you follow that route and that happens; I get that every psych med has to work for someone, but all of the reports I've heard of using mirtazapine for depression are the same: it makes you hungry beyond words, knocks you out for 12 hours or more every day (which is not really any better than insomnia because you're still exhausted all the time), and makes you dissociated as shit. (Without fixing your depression, of course; it could be said to fix anxiety, but only because you don't feel like you exist, so you can't be anxious if you don't exist, I guess.) This is horrible to experience from the inside, and also make parents exponentially more annoyed with you, because look at this lazy (heavily sedated) teenager who keeps eating like a fat pig (someone who's had their metabolism chemically altered).

I realise this may not be relevant, but I add in just in case, because UK experience + horrible temporary and permanent side effects + often makes family even more pissed at you.

Re: therapy - I presume you've tried asking her what precisely she dislikes about therapy; did you get anything concrete? You're in the UK, right, so from what I can tell pretty much the only therapy you get offered without yelling at people a lot is standard CBT, and that can sometimes be really shit for depression, especially depression that comes with self-worth issues, because it can come off as like 'the only reason that you're unhappy is because you're not doing well enough, behave differently and you won't have a problem', and that's... not great. It can also be bad for situational depression, because again, it's very focused on 'what can you do to stop this being a problem' which can 1) seem frustrating when you really can't do much about situations out of your control and 2) seem very invalidating. So depending on what she's told you and how she feels, it might be worth yelling talking very politely and firmly to the NHS (probably the CAMHS team in your area?) to find out what other therapy options are available? It's of course also theoretically possible to switch therapists within a team, but might not be ideal.

more re: therapy - I am absolutely not meaning to be pushy, so let me know if I'm crossing any boundaries, okay? But if Z is 17 and in CAMHS/whatever the adolescent care is in your region of the UK, it's a good time for someone to start looking into transitional care and figuring out what to do when she turns 18. I know that seems forever away, but paperwork takes time, and getting shoved out of therapy when you're 18 and having to get on a massive waitlist for adult care... isn't great. (I think last time round it took me 4ish months to get to the top of the waitlist?)

even more re: therapy - do your parents see the same therapist as Z, and/or does the therapist have a robust confidentiality policy? I had a lot of problem with adolescent therapy (in the UK) because the therapists also saw my parents as part of the treatment; my parents were convinced that I was just a selfish little shit who needed to grow up, and, well, when you're a minor, doctors and therapists are generally inclined to believe the adult. I know your parents aren't being that level of abusive, but if they are also seeing the therapist, either the therapist may have picked up on and acted on the belief that Z is just being angsty and exhausting (and thus reflected that in their treatment of Z), or Z may feel like the therapist has. Same for the confidentiality policies - some places will keep confidentiality with minors (with the usual clauses), some places you get the feel that they're gonna tell your parents everything you just said, and it's worth finding out in case that's a problem, because not being able to trust your therapist to keep things secret absolutely leads to not wanting to talk to them. (I'm not meaning to be rude or overstep here - I genuinely don't know how widespread these therapeutic practices are in the UK, but I do know that they were a problem for me and so conceivably might be for Z.)

 

(I feel compelled to note that Bird and I not physically being together is a relatively recent phenomenon ok yes now I am going back to silently watching this thread)

 

Have read post, spoons gone, reply later

this topic is weirdly spoons draining actually? think probably because it's been dominating my life for like eight months now

 

update: her therapist apparently did a home visit today and it went way better than it usually did! b/c she's more relaxed. she definitely seems to be better today.

 

don't worry about it! I did think you were annoyed with me, but I always think people are annoyed with me, so.

well, you certainly know her better than I do, and your reasoning here sounds solid. it's definitely possible that she'd like a close-by friend but doesn't have the motivation to go and make one, and maybe giving her a little push will help with that. it doesn't sound like you want her to Go Go Go All The Time She Cannot Possibly Be Happy Unless She Has a Million Friends, which is what I was worried about.

sounds like you're keeping her needs in mind, and thinking I'll hate something and then ending up enjoying it is something that happens to me fairly frequently. on the other hand, I'd say that it's important to keep an eye on whether she actually does start to enjoy herself, because if not that'd just be counterproductive.

yay!

 

ain't no thing friend, I thought you were annoyed with me and got preemptively defensive. braindumb! plus obvs this is an emotional thing for me. that goes for everyone else too, I'm working on the defensiveness thing but it's still a problem, so I'm sorry if I bite. feel free to gently spritz me with water.

anyway alright let's give this a shot:
@esotericPrognosticator I was gonna quote specific parts of your post but really what I want to say is that the whole thing is a good point. I think I'm probably at least partially projecting myself onto her - I wish I'd listened to the same advice when I was her age, so I'm trying everything to get her to listen, but then we just both get frustrated. I gotta remember to take a deep breath and remember that things will be okay even if she doesn't do the thing Right Now.

Yeah, her friends are really good! It's just that they used to be IRL friends and now they're not, and she misses that, or at least that's my impression. Seriously, you shoulda seen her with B. Absolutely inseparable. I don't think any friend over here is gonna come even close to that, but just having someone to hug that isn't mum would be a start.

There's a pet cafe near us, actually! I, uh, have not successfully gotten her to join me there yet. I might try inviting her this weekend, without Mum. We had a dog back home who she adored, so again with the lack-of-affection issues.

You're not wrong. Hrn. Honestly with the clusterfuck that is our sleeping patterns (the only person in our family who consistently sleeps through the night is my dad) and Z's tendency to stay up, I mightn't've given it the thought it deserves. As for meds, yeah, unfortunately she gets really knocked around by any kind of sleeping pills, which are what keep me sane.

You actually make a good point about CBT. That's actually the main thing she complained about (the other being that she just doesn't feel comfortable in a therapy setting, which home visits are hopefully gonna help with). I might have a chat with her, and maybe see what I can do. Luckily I'm part of the Mental Health Team(tm) and people are willing to listen to me.

Not pushy at all! I know basically nothing about the NHS. Out of curiousity, is it the same thing for private care? (Yes, I know, #richprivilege)

Ahahaha it is funny that you mention this! That's exactly what the therapy is like here, which is super weird to me. I hear two very different versions of the story from Z and Mum (that is, Mum thinks that the therapist is getting the completely wrong idea about what Z's actual problems are, which doesn't surprise me since Z clams up when she's stressed), so I try to reserve judgement, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were also a problem. Mum can be kind of overbearing...

I'll try to sit down with Z this weekend, or whenever the opportunity arises, and I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks for your advice, and also your patience. Like I said. I'm working on it.