Ironically, the ATLA revival has in fact brought rounds of "Zuko (and Iroh) don't deserve redemption" out to play, so 'only good redemption arc' my ass.
While I am not happy about that rhetoric in general I am, irrationally, almost comforted to hear that. At least if the wank changes to "all redemption arcs are evil" instead of "all redemption arcs are evil except this specific one which uses all the standard plot beats and tropes but it's good and no others are and we won't tell you why" it would at least be, like, consistent.
This is pure speculation, but what if yes? Zuko was written sympathetically from the start, in a story that repeatedly urges people to look past the surface and try to understand circumstances and consequences with compassion. It’s never believable that Zuko’s father is going to recognize him again in any way that’s good. You don’t even have to know anything about his scar or father to realize immediately that he’s on a fool’s errand. It would probably be pretty easy to pick up on that without realizing why you’re invested in this character. It would probably feel really damn good to have your investment pay off so thoroughly. You knew it all along! (You didn’t, not really, but it feels like you did because the storytelling was effective.)
I remember rooting for a Zuko redemption from episode 2, specifically because of the way he kept his word when he promised he'd leave the Water Tribe village unharmed if Aang turned himself over. A lot of other villians, especially 2-dimensional children's show villians, would have at least knocked some more houses over on the way out, just to be a jerk. ... but also, if the show were airing now for the first time, I'd probably be afraid to talk about that on Tumblr for fear of the Problematic Fave Police.
Potentially hot take but if Avatar was airing right now there'd be bloody twitter battles about whether or not you support Literal Genocide by condoning Zuko's redemption arc. Reading comprehension is a lost art.
I was going to joke and say that I'd be accused of that twice over for wanting more for Azula than she was permitted but then I have seen people be like "Why do people feel sorry for her? She's evil," lately so like.
Legitimately? Yes. From - I believe it's episode 3? [checks] Yeah, episode 3. The minutes Zhao is introduced, he's not only providing someone we can root for Zuko to win against because he's worse, he's providing an insight into what the standard adult figure in the Fire Nation is like and specifically providing insight into Zuko's relationship with his father and his banishment. From that episode, the fact that Zuko is an abused kid who hasn't processed his abuse and is still trying to do right by the standards of his abusive parent, who also happens to be the head of the genocidal empire, which means that Zuko is contending with propaganda as well as the usual shit abused kids have to unpack? I'm not saying I would have excused his actions. But would I be going to bat for him as someone who deserves better than he's gotten in life, who has the potential to be better if he's offered the chance and can find the self-identity to take it? You're goddamn right I would have been batting for Zuko from that moment on. Episode three. No, I wouldn't have at the age I was at when ATLA originally aired, that's true, but also I hadn't processed any of my own situation as abuse when I was twelve. (And even that's not perfectly indicative because I was a stan for Murtagh Eragonbookseries at twelve, and there's a hell of a lot of Same Themes there.) As the adult I am now? I would have been on the front lines of the "Zuko redemption AU" fic writers from right there, at that moment, which would probably be day one because of how cartoons are usually released in seasons on Netflix these days. Like... I feel like this argument is really disingenuous in its assumption that people who are Zuko fans weren't Zuko fans from the beginning. I'm on the younger end of "older" ATLA fans and a lot of people were older and have clearer memories of when it aired. Is the point about it being their first really developed redemption arc on point? Yeah, I think it is. But the reason people rave about it is because we were rooting for him from the beginning. Because we found resonance in his narrative from the beginning. Like, I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't find "it's the only good redemption arc" annoying because I frankly agree to a certain extent. But acting like every single person who is a Zuko fan now only likes him because he did end up redeemed is? it really makes me angry? And comes off as really ignorant of fandom dynamics as well. There will always be people stanning unambiguously evil characters because some part of the character resonated with them. Zuko has a massive amount of resonance with virtually anyone who had an abusive situation growing up, based on my experience of his fandom, and those people tend to be villain fans in general. And villain fandom... isn't in it to prove that their fave is somehow morally acceptable and good (most of the time. most of it.). We're here purely because we get enjoyment and resonance out of the character and there's no expectation of redemption. I mean, for fuck's sake, there are diehard Zhao fans. There have been diehard Zhao fans since the airing of that very same episode three. Not everything is about moral purity contests, as much as modern fandom would incline you to think otherwise. And especially in older fandoms? Nobody gave a shit. We liked Zuko for Zuko, not Zuko's Redemption Arc Later On.
In the interests of clarity, this is not remotely what I was intending to convey. Of course he's intended to be sympathetic early on. His redemption arc is a solid but extremely typical example of a particular type. Moderately threatening but a little bit ineffectual antagonist with sympathetic history, working as an underling to a bigger bad, contrasted with crueler and more threatening antagonists in the same faction, who begins to have doubts and question his goals and loyalties and seems to be on the cusp of changing sides entirely before he's confronted with a chance to turn away from that and get everything he wanted and takes it, but on doing so discovers that getting what he thought he wanted didn't actually make him feel any better, and finally joins the heroes after realizing that the things he was taught to believe in were empty and destructive. There's lots and lots of characters that follow this trajectory, or something similar. Anytime I see a moderately threatening early antagonist with a lot of complex and sympathetic characterization, I assume there's like 70% chance they'll either join the hero team or usurp the Big Bad and become the new, tragic final boss. Of course lots of people will and do like him from the start and find him sympathetic; that's the point of the archetype. I mean, I liked him early on, it'd be pretty stupid of me to claim people don't. But I often see the "only good redemption arc" thing done against other characters who are equally clearly telegraphed as a flawed but sympathetic person who's making bad decisions and working on behalf of bad people and doing bad things because of their damage. (Catra from She-Ra was one that particularly stuck in my head.) And I see it a great deal in conjunction with what appears to me to be a huge increase in rhetoric in certain parts of fandom demonizing antagonists for being antagonists, and particularly tying it to SJ, so if you like a character who does bad things then you're an imperialist apologist or an abuse apologist or whatever. It's not that I think everyone who likes him is only projecting backwards, it's that I think a certain, loud subset are refusing to grant other characters the clemency that Zuko was granted because AtLA fandom in 2005, while just as wanky and prone to slapfights as 2020 panfandom, was arguing more about Whose Ship Is More Canon than Liking This Character Means You Support Real-Life Imperialism. Watching AtLA in real-time in 2005 at age 14 was a different experience from being able to binge the whole thing afterward when "Zuko has a great redemption arc" was already widely agreed, and neither involves the same sort of microscopic scrutiny to whether they "deserve" a potential redemption that happens to antagonistic characters in open canons right now. And I think if AtLA was airing today, that scrutiny would happen and there would be Zukourse and it would be damn near indistinguishable from a lot of other Are They A Good Enough Person For It To Be Legal To Write Them Trying To Be A Better Person Discourse(TM) and I suspect some subset of the people saying "no" to all those others would probably say no to Zuko, too.
i think i was like 12? when atla came out. i only watched part of the first season before i lost track. but 12 yr old me knew from the start zuko would turn good bc he was a teenager and shows then never went all in on teens/kids being evil villains. at most they were they classroom bully who'd get 1 sympathetic episode or more comedy villain. it wasnt hard to figure out! i think 12 yr old me wouldve only been surprised that it took as long as it did. but given the current fandom climate, "zuko is irredeemable bc imperialism" would 100% be the discourse if atla came out today
I would like the term "Team Mom" retired pls and thx. Especially bitter about the person who prompted Nicky being team mom on the Old Guard kink meme and the person who +1ed to say "It's basically canon" Spoiler: NSFW Joke The only parental identity allowed among these characters is Andy being everyone's Daddy
ugh I hate the delegating any slightly caring female character over 20 to mom status. like yes please show your misogyny more, I love it.
He's actually a man, but he's the Designated Bottom in the main slash ship so he is Basically A Woman I guess *vomiting emoji*
Back when I was semi-active in Haikyuu fandom this drove me nuts with Suga. It felt like most of the fandom declared him Team Mom because he's a nice person and in the older year, and he just got more and more feminized from then on.
My biggest personal beef with this kind of discourse is when people fail to distinguish between unfortunate trends like that versus genderplay or genderfuck as a kink, and go after fanfic authors telling them they're Committing Problematics. I don't think every author who is writing gender-related kink necessarily realizes that's what they're doing, and being told that some aspect of your sexuality is misogynistic or transphobic is pretty damn shitty. But a reader might be understandably distressed to stumble upon an untagged kink like that, and I definitely don't blame them at all for being upset, because that is also pretty damn shitty. Maybe it's unfair of me to want people who encounter an unexpected kink to handle it more gracefully than people who wrote it. I dunno. It is a difficulty.
I mean, this was not a porn thing. This was straight up just "this guy is basically a woman because he's caring"
Okay yeah, lemme just grab the industrial grade No. "I wrote a kinky story containing an element that I may not realize is itself a specific kink thing" is definitely not the same situation as a wider fandom trend that casually misgenders a character. While I wish people might not track so much industrial grade No into the kinky fic area, if the wider fandom spaces are being like that, I think I understand better where it's coming from. And because it's late, all my brain has to offer by way of conclusion is the Wayne's World line, "Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, 'If you label me, you negate me?'"
People accepting a piece of lore which blatantly doesn't work at face value. Spoiler: homestuck rage Human romance is not "all four quadrants smushed together". Matespritship was stated in the quadrant introduction to be the same as human romance, and the other three quadrants are things which would be actively dangerous to have in a human relationship!
I'm not sure if people are agreeing with the annoyance at people accepting faulty lore in general or that specific piece of it or both.
i am not in the critical role fandom. i know very little about critical role. HOWEVER i feel safe in saying that from my twitter dash, critrole fandom needs to have the term comphet ripped out of their grimy little pizza hands because BIPHOBIA EVERYWHERE
