Undertale - Pet dogs and date a skeleton!

@missoyashirou

Here it is!

Honestly, though, for me that just makes the blame to Asgore more direct - he was the one who ordered them killed in the first place and fanned the rhetoric of a war to keep everyone going, so even if someone else had killed them, he wouldn't be innocent imo. Understanding why he did it doesn't mean I necessarily approve.

 

Oh, I totally understand and I did blame him for it. It's more a question of if there were other monsters who had killed as well (I had a headcanon that Light Blue had stayed with Toriel for some time, only to be killed by a Whimser and a Froggit in that alcove where you find her knife, hence why Toriel has little patience for any monster who might hurt you, and why Sir Whimsalot can be defeated by reminding him of his morality).

Mind you, they're still culpable, as is the rest of society, for fighting kids and bringing them to their king to be murdered for souls, but it's a lot less direct than being killers themselves. Plus that also means Asgore lied in the first fight, which just seems incredibly... Cruel, to some level? It's bad enough you're going to kill me man. At least Undyne and Mettaton were upfront about their goals.

 

Yeah. The answer is that Asgore travels the underground sometimes, that was when he found and killed the other 6 kids. Which... sort of implies he went into the ruins to kill the first child. Eeesh.

 

Oh jesus. No wonder why Toriel is ready to seal that bad boy up as soon as possible.

Is the color order confirmed? I mean, no matter what it's bad, but it's especially bad if she finally got the sixth child to agree to stay, only for Asgore to make his way in anyway. She has all rights to be livid especially since... Yikes man, that's just cold. And you're a species that can outlive most humans, you couldn't have waited an additional seventy-some odd years, you had to go directly to take your ex-wife's latest kid?

 

Yeah, I really don't understand why Asgore couldn't just wait for the fallen humans to die of natural causes. It's not like they can leave with the barrier, anyway. I guess it was to fuel the whole 'yeah we're gonna start a war' narrative to prop people up, but... that doesn't make it better. The only other thing I can think of is he was traumatized from what happened to Chara and Asriel and was scared the humans would kill Toriel or him so they could take a soul and leave.

 

Like, the fact that by the time it hits the game timeline, he's so sick and tired and sad of it that he literally gives Frisk like 5 chances to back away and can't even use his full strength and doesn't leave the palace... doesn't justify that he was proactive about this whole 'child murder' thing before. I feel bad for Asgore but I don't really like him.

 

Possibly the fear and possibly trying to do it as quickly as possible to prevent any more undue stress to the population? Even then, it looks like most monsters would be able to wait out a few extra decades comparatively.

I also have to wonder if there's a part of it that's him... Kind of disinheriting Chara? Whenever he talks about the tragedy, it's always wanting to see Toriel and Asriel again and wishing to see his 'son' in singular. Never a reference to his children. Did he blame Chara for what happened with Asriel as well? If so, revenge on humanity for tricking him and Toriel, as well as getting their only child killed would make sense.

 

Yeah... meanwhile Toriel buried Chara and refers to her 'children' i think. And I mean it's p strongly implied she adopted the other fallen kids and a lot of them stayed with her long enough to need new shoes, Frisk is kind of an anomaly (bc DETERMINED). Two totally different ways of reacting to the same tragedy.

I feel like it was kind of shitty to lay all the pressure of 'acting as a bridge between humanity and monsters' on Chara, too.

 

I liked him a lot better before I found out about this, to be honest. I mean, he wasn't the only monster who messed up horribly but again, at least Undyne and Mettaton were upfront about their intentions about murdering you. And Alphys and Toriel never intended to hurt anyone, it was just a case of science going horribly one in one circumstance, and the other repeatedly exiling herself at very poor times (I wonder if anything would have been easier if she either came along or was still accessible to talk on the phone with Frisk throughout the underground? If nothing else, maybe she could have kept Flowey's stalking down, which couldn't have hurt.)

I was really giving him the benefit of the doubt, but lying to kids before you kill them and being proactively murdering versus setting up a system of mutual killing and regretting it as you collect the rewards is really fucked up. What the hell, Asgore.

 

The problem of Asgore is... interesting.

I don't think I can words it all right now, besides... he felt obligated to give the people hope of freedom, and he was afraid to take back his declaration of war.

Asgore declared war when he was sad and angry. The people took hope from that, from believing they had a goal and a promise of freedom, someday. He regretted it when he calmed down, but he's the king, responsible for their wellbeing. He decided their morale was more important than his morality.

Toriel, disgusted by his decision and with the people for cheering on the idea of revenge, abandoned her responsibilities to the kingdom, and exiled herself in the Ruins, where she could intercept any others that fell in, and offer them a home he could't reach. She chose the memory of her child, and the hypothetical wellbeing of those who did not want to fight, over the monsters whose hopes disgusted her.

Asgore did not and does not want to kill anyone. He declared war, and the hope people got from that was so much bigger than he ever expected, so he resigned himself to doing it. I headcanon that he treated all the kids like he does Frisk: giving them chances to go back, and live underground if they just never return to the castle.

The Royal Guard under Undyne is pretty proactive about hunting humans, but I don't know of any reason to believe they were before she became its leader.

 

Admittedly, a lot of this is why I also kinda like the guy? He's trying to make a good situation out of some of the most horrific circumstances, and make amends in his own way. It's more lying to Frisk about it being his first time that bothers me, for some reason, like... It's not necessary. It doesn't make the situation any easier for them, and it just sounds like a way of coming off more noble than he is in this circumstance.

And I do blame Toriel for a lot of what went down too, like she might have been able to prevent this entire situation if she didn't just decide "Fuck this shit, I'm out." on monster society for being, as far as they knew, rightfully angry at human culture for killing both of their princes. But that's a lot of probabilities, and it doesn't effect the actual outcome.

I don't dislike Toriel either, I actually really like her a lot, just think she's about the same level as Alphys when it comes to things going wrong? I just worry that it comes off as bashing by phrasing it like that.

 

Yeah, except Toby Fox stated that Asgore killed all the other kids, their gear is found at various places, and Gerson mentions Asgore wandering the kingdom occasionally. That paints a more proactive picture to me, I think he was just burned out at Frisk.

 

I try not to think of the dropped gear as indications of where the kids died, because the idea that he stipped them is way creepier than I need.

 

Yuuuup. It does seem the most likely indication to me, though, which is... mrrr.

OH, wait. yeah. hmm. They could have just upgraded gear, i guess...?

 

Also note that none of the gear is full clothes. It's like. An apron. A bandana. A hat. A tutu skirt, which for kids, usually goes OVER the clothes. So there's that.

 

Yeah. If it werent for the ribbon and toy knife, I would probably be down for the "where they died" theory. But I don't think Asgore got into the ruins after Toriel left. Gear upgrades, and dropping old stuff behind, makes more sense for me.

 

This also puts the comically horrible idea of how hard is he fighting these kids that their gear is strewn all over sections of the Underground instead of one neat pile.

Holy shit Asgore, there's mercy-killing, and there's 'mercy-killing' a kid so hard their head and hairband go flying down a cellar about 300 feet away. Did it take some time for you to get used to not obliterating people in one hit with your 80 atk power, or something?

Personally though, I'm a little on the fence for either option? On the one hand, the idea they're dropping their gear as they upgrade and they all meet up at Asgore's castle makes a lot of sense, but on the other hand the idea that they're being hunted down by Asgore and killed off by their gear paints a really dark picture I like? Then again, maybe they were kidnapped by monsters and brought to Asgore from where their gear was dropped? If Papyrus's statement of bringing you to the castle in exchange for joining the guard is truth instead of him being a silly-billy, that would certainly be an incentive enough for monsters to bring back kids alive.

 

P sure his attack was LOWERED to 80 because he didn't want to fight Frisk, btw. Probably started out highest at the first kid and got progressively lower.

 

That just makes the accidental obliterations even more likely. And traumatizing, for everyone involved.

 

"Holy crap man that kid just exploded."
"I... I just poked them."