Needing validation (general thread)

*gets worked up about validation yet again*

so, basically, i saw this post. and at first i was like, "norm the genie/me, that's cool. might do that. i mean, if i'm not too embarrassed to, or i don't get a better idea." so, anyway, i was thinking about it, as you do, and well, eventually my thoughts wandered to this part, which reads:

.

and was like, "really? no conditions at all? like, if i drew two stick figures making out that were labelled with 'norm the genie' and my url, they would reblog it with those tags and basically say that it's awesome?" which got me frustrated. like, what the fuck is the point, than, if you're just gonna like or pretend to like everyone's stuff? and gonna fucking say it upfront like that? at least try to make me believe that you care 'cause it's good or something, not 'cause you're trying to encourage me to ~indulge~ myself. i can fucking see right through you! i can see right the fuck through you!

so, yeah... i'm crying now! and they thought they were helping people...

on a more analytical note, i just realized that this is why i'm uncomfortable with stuff like the steven crewniverse promoting the fanart of their younger (as in, under 12 years old and generally not as skilled) fans. 'cause it comes off the same way, really. like, everyone (but most of the kids) knows that the art is really not great, and is only being promoted on their twitters and shit in order to encourage the kids' artistic abilities. everyone knows it, yet they keep up the fucking illusion, hoping no one spots it. 'cause if anyone does, it collapses. 'cause it's fucking fake. they don't think the art is awesome. they might be like, "yay people are making art for our show" but they are also like, "let's encourage these kids by pretending we like their stuff more than we do." which, damn, is something i've had enough of.

same reason i don't like people promoting the concept of mary sues as feminist. like, "it's so nice that people other than white cis abled men are projecting their wishfulfulfillment fantasies, often in badly written or canon-defying ways. let's praise them for doing that and encourage them to do that.... 'cause it's feminist! never mind that pretty much no one actually wants to read those fics, at least for things other than unintentional humour."

it's all patronizing bullshit and i hate it!!!

 

@unknownanonymous

They are making a valuable point, which is that people are embarrassed and afraid to do things that make them happy, because they fear they will be judged. It's mean to judge people for doing things that make them happy. (As long as they're not, you know, kicking puppies for fun. Usual caveats about 'if it hurts people it's probably bad'.)

And a big part of becoming an emotionally fulfilled adult is learning that the bullying you experienced as a kid largely doesn't happen anymore, and you can be a dork without being Social Outcast Forever.

However, yeah, they're totally doing the 'tumblr lovefest' thing, which Seebs et al have remarked on as kind of weird. Clearer example is like, the 'otherkin love uwu' posts that one user was doing, with the flower emotes.

The problem is "I will reblog it with how much I ship it!!" is a profoundly superficial way of validating people. They clearly will not ship characters they've never heard of, and it's not based on the artistic merit of the work. They're pretending it's about merit, but it's actually about validation. If it were written as validation - like, "I will reblog it, because it's awesome to see people having fun!" - it might read as less patronizing.

It really is a good idea, they're just not doing it awesomely; Tumblr's not a great environment to learn about that stuff.

(However, I feel like the Steven Crewniverse reblogs are probably in a different vein. That's not necessarily about artistic merit. I think it's probably actually "The fact that these kids are creating artwork for our show means that they really care about it, and it's making a difference in their lives. That feels awesome, because this show is promoting social values and ideas we really care about, and it's awesome that our target audience is embracing it." They're excited about the fact that people care, not about the artistic merit itself.)

(And eh, Mary Sues as patronizing... I think it's not distinguishing between Mary Sues as "characters who make everything ALL ABOUT THEM and are poorly written", which yeah, people don't want to read, and "characters who are Super Special but are actually written just fine", which people actually DO want to read. Like, Batman is a Mary Sue in the latter sense - more accurately, he's a wish fulfillment fantasy. Wish fulfillment characters who are female are often parsed as Mary Sues, but they really aren't the 'poorly written character nobody wants to hear about', and they can be enjoyable characters. Again, I think they're making a good point, it's just written badly.)

 

@unknownanonymous Also, yeah, the need for validation can be based on things other than BPD. I will do a ramble on this when I'm not, uh, at work and coding, because that's gonna be a ramble. >>;

 

@albedo yep. i definitely get that point, by itself. it's just, as you said, the way they worded it brought it kinds of bad Tumblr Lovefest baggage. 'cause yeah, i can't see any conceivable way in which they'd care in the way they say they'd care. that probs means a change in how they worded it would help.

but apparently it helped many other people, even if it was lovefesty and incompatible with me, so... yeah, i can intellectually see value in it from the point of view of that and what the point they were trying to make was.

(i can see that. but personally, when i think of reblogging art and stuff, that's not necessarily the first thing i think of. and artemispanthar [one of the strongest advocates of that] interprets in a way that's more about encouraging the kids and convincing them their art has merit than about the crew being thrilled they're connecting to people. and there's this post about how tumblr should draw the fan characters of one guy on youtube 'cause people were bullying him in the comment section, even as it admitted and/or made it clear they weren't very good/well-drawn fan characters or from particularly good videos. so that's where my interpretation it of came from.)

(i stick to the first definition when i think about mary sues so yeah... that's probably part of it. like, i know about 2000s fandom misogynystic - it's just so ridiculous and far away from 2010s fandom, i don't even bother to take it seriously now. thus getting bothered by the posts about feminist mary sues and jupiter jones: 2015's feminist mary sue.)

:D awesome!

 

@unknownanonymous Yeah, that's the trouble with brainweirds, reading into things that they intended to be read on a very surface level. Nothing wrong with how you read it, just frustrating.

(Mmm, fair. It can definitely edge into weirdness; it's a tricky line.)

 

Vent time: (god I'm even trying to qualify this so how about I just type it out and feel like a dickprince about it later)

Spoiler: fucking gross motivation shit

I am so sick of being the only person who motivates me. I'm just tired of it; it's exhausting. Like, I'm not even talking about superficial "you can do it! :D :D :D" messages, even though those are tiring me out right now because I'm the only person who gives those to me. They don't help anyway; I know I can do it, I'm just in a very deep funk of I don't have the wherewithal to force myself to do it. I'm talking about being rewarded. I'm the only person rewarding myself, and trying to find rewards that work isn't working right now. I just need someone else's help for structure and motivation and the concept of "reward" or a "carrot" and I'm not going to get it. And even if all of this isn't true, that I'm the "only one," it's how I feel, which itself is just so incredibly petty and gross and just makes me feel even worse.

Even if I did get it I'd probably feel bad about it. One of my polymates is struggling hardcore with this kind of thing right now and asking them for help when I'm trying to help them by rewarding them for finishing schoolwork just feels horrible. I shouldn't be asking someone for help when I'm the one in this relationship helping them with this sort of thing. And I can't show weakness to them or my helping them isn't as effective, didn't you know. And asking anyone for help with schoolwork motivation this time of year is awful anyway; everyone's suffering from the same problem, so how come I can't get motivated and everyone else can? Even if they can, they probably don't have enough motivation to spread it around or enough spoons to help me in particular.

Like, how much of a shitheel do I even want to be. I just want someone else to like. Bribe me to do things. That I should be doing anyway. It's horrible. I want someone else's help and even if I get it now it'll be because I "asked" for it and so it won't be genuine, it'll only be pity!!! Same as my validation issues really. I guess I just want my lack of motivation to be validated by someone who understands and can help motivate me instead but it's not going to happen.

 

@pixels
Uh. I'm not sure i can really advise, but...
same. I felt like this throughout a lot of uni, really. So you're not the only one. This may be a completely useless statement, but i kinda felt like I had to make it.

 

@pixels
Serious question: why are you doing this stuff?
(that's not a rhetorical "you shouldn't be doing this stuff" statement, I'm genuinely asking why)

Also, relationships are reciprocal, mate. And that includes giving and receiving help.
I mean them not having spoons is one thing, but that "I shouldn't be asking someone for help" voice can go fuck itself with a Bohemian earspoon.

FWIW this sounds like some shit I've been dealing with too, although it manifests a bit differently.

 

@Wiwaxia happy reasons! I graduate May 2. I have to get through finals to get there. (Why they put finals between me and graduation is a totally different question, haha.) The problem is that I've never had the "but I don't wanna" malaise hit me this goddamn hard. I literally have no idea how to deal with it besides motivate myself, and I'm so tired of doing that and don't know an alternative.

Good news: no other finals after this set, so no chance of me getting this specific brand of unmotivated ever again.

ETA: Also my brand of "helping" my polymate stay motivated is to write them smut of whatever Homestuck pairing/sitch they request. It's her carrot, because the stick of "your grade will go down if this isn't on time" wasn't working, and I'm usually good to provide that sort of thing. I'm so unmotivated to anything that I can't even do that right now, though.

Blehhhhhhhhhh.

 

Well, it's good that you've got happy reasons at least! I've definitely gotten stuck in motivationless places where I don't have happy reasons to do a thing, which sucks majorly.

I guess what I would ask then is how little you can get away with doing?

Yes, this. There's a reason that "fuck 'should'" is a perennial mantra for me.

 

@pixels I know that feeling very well :/

Is it possible that you can make the rewards something to do together, so that one reward can help motivate both of you? The thing that used to work well for me and one of my roommates was, "Okay, we're going to sit at opposite ends of this table with our headphones on and grind out 90 minutes of work while making distressed noises at each other. And then after those 90 minutes, we'll take a walk to the coffee shop." Or bake a batch of that pre-made cookie dough. Or order pizza.

Oop, while I was writing this, you posted and clarified. Posting anyway, but go ahead and disregard!

 

@WithAnH I don't have IRL friends, really. My polymates are both long-distance. I don't even like studying with other people. So I have to badger myself for those breaks. On the upside, I'm getting fettucine alfredo tonight, come hell or high water, because I've Earned It by now.

Part of the problem is I recently discovered a few things. One, Ds get JDs. Two, I'm going to pass, I just might not like my grade. Now, it's true, I'd rather not be ashamed of my grade, but. *vague grumbling noises*

I think I figured out a way to kick myself into gear. Usually I hibernate by going into my bedroom. I didn't want to do it this time around, but now Roommate has decided to clean all the things and basically get in my goddamn way and irritate the shit out of me by doing laundry and the dishwasher at the same time. Like, fuck you too. And the only thing I can really do in my bedroom is study. So, accidental motivation get? I guess. It's part of my finals routine. Part of it was the feeling that "this isn't happening" and now it's Definitely Happening.

Thanks, everyone. I feel kind of marginally less stupid for having a problem with motivating myself; y'all really did help.

 

@pixels Ahh, I see. Enjoy the fettuccine alfredo!

 

@albedo that's exactly it, really! i read into things too much.

 

I never really think about validation as being a thing I need, but I suspect that may be part of my "never asks for help" thing. As in, asking for help rarely even crosses my mind, no matter how afraid or anxious I feel. Because then people would see how much of a failure I am, or something. Honestly I can't entirely recall why I have the habit of never asking for help because it was formed years ago, but I have read that high-achieving/intellectual kids (such as myself) are less likely to ask for help because that would show that they don't completely understand the subject in question, which would fit with my perfectionism/pride thing that I've had going on for at least the last decade.

Honestly I've been feeling anxious/afraid for the last week or so and I guess I've been kind of suppressing/repressing it which I know isn't healthy but facing the actual source of the stress (statistics project) is also scary. All the behaviors I picked up to cope with stress end up increasing my level of stress, and while I have found a few methods to cope with stress that actually decrease stress, I sometimes avoid those behaviors because of this chain of thought: "ok if i meditate i can de-stress and do shit -> but then i'd have to do shit -> i don't want to think about doing this shit -> shit let's read fanfiction or go on tumblr or something so i don't have to think about stress." And then I don't end up doing the stress-decreasing behaviors because of the underlying procrastination habits which are causing the stress.

...Okay I'm certain I had something else to write here but I was incredibly distracted by the homestuck update, sooo I'm just gonna hit post.

 

"It me" like, not like-like. Because it me. Never even thought about the perfectionist thing but I can totally see it now. If you have a study on the perfectionist thing I'd love to see it (if you don't no big deal but hey it's validation from sciency people).

 

Understood. I believe I got the whole "high-achieving/intellectual kids are less likely to ask for help because that would show that they don't completely understand the subject in question" idea from Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards, which is an excellent study on motivation and how unmotivated (and demotivated) people are by carrot-and-stick external motivators, especially grades.

For perfectionism in general, I don't have much of anything except for my own experiences as a high-achieving, perfectionist procrastinator; there's a link somewhere I thought I saved about perfectionism and procrastination, but I'm not sure where it is. I do have a few quotes I saved... without sources. Goooo past me.

"I wish I didn’t know this as well as I do, but depression in smart people often manifests as perfectionism and grandiose ideas about what we *should* be doing/should have done by now, and we cycle through those thoughts about how we’re not being all that we can be in a way that paralyzes us about doing the small daily stuff that would actually make our lives a little easier. We overthink everything to the point that small healthy habits and routines become impossible, because if something is easy we must be doing it wrong."​

and (different source):

"Wherever perfectionism is driving, shame is riding shotgun. Perfectionism is not about healthy striving, which you see all the time in successful leaders, it's not about trying to set goals and being the best we can be, perfectionism is basically a cognitive behavioral process that says if I look perfect, work perfect, and do everything perfectly, I can avoid shame, ridicule, and criticism. It's a defense mechanism."
​

Which, hmmm. If perfectionism is itself a defense mechanism, and procrastination is a defense mechanism to avoid the stress caused by perfectionism... who's flying the plane?

#going to sleep now

 

@garden did you try putting some of the more unique quotes from those (eg. "shame is riding shotgun") in google, with the I Want This Full Exact Phrase option?
that is what i do when i want to find something on the net and have no idea where it originally came from.