Programming (explanations for the non-programmers, mostly)

Discussion in 'General Chatter' started by seebs, May 3, 2015.

  1. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    My husband made a bejeweled clone for WoW in lua. It was pretty sweet.
     
    • Like x 1
  2. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Someone did those and got nasty letters from Popcap, after which Popcap ended up producing implementations of peggle and bejeweled in WoW that were given special dispensation to be obfuscated despite the usual policy against obfuscated addon code.
     
  3. jpronghorn

    jpronghorn Member

    There is no mention in this thread of Fortran, hanging chads, or construction of your control deck. Seebs, are you sure you are an expert programmer? ;>)
     
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I'm too new for most of that. By the time I got involved, "terminals" were nearly all CRTs, with only one or two actual printer consoles still visible.
     
  5. jpronghorn

    jpronghorn Member

    I am just having a random day, and was tickled that my meager experience long ago was more relevant today for fixing elections in Florida or playing Hearthstone than anything else.
     
  6. pixels

    pixels hiatus / only back to vent

    I'd also love to work on game mods, because I sperg on TES and TES III: Morrowind is notoriously buggy and ugly as shit. Just tell me how to read what's going on and I can pick up where the other mods left off, because even the mods at this point conflict with each other sometimes. Or if I could learn how to edit the .ini and executive-level files like that without totally fucking the entire thing.

    Later, though. Right now I'm *runs away screaming from bar exam review material* and I cannot process anything else.

    So, can someone go into detail with how mods can or do work? I know some mods do things like run scripts in the background, some mods just replace references in the .ini with other references either found in the mod or found somewhere else (texture replacers, graphics extenders), some mods don't even run scripts but change something I don't know what it is called a GSRM or something, some mods eat up a lot of processing power, some don't. I don't understand any of it but I want to ahhhhhhhhh *gently caresses Morrowind modding community*
     
  7. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    Yep! He just about had a heart attack when he got the email from popcaps legal dept. Thought he was gonna get sued ; ended up getting a job instead. :)
     
    • Like x 2
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't know a ton (or anything at all really) about Morrowind in particular.

    In general, the way modding works is some variant of "there are points where the game engine runs scripts, and you can provide replacement scripts".
     
  9. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    ... OMG.

    You said "a" bejeweled clone. I didn't realize it was the Bejeweled clone.

    FWIW, I did at one point long ago maintain a WoW mod, called Chatterbox. It was one of the ones that let you randomly have your character say things when you take actions. So, sort of like the thing of setting up macros to say something when you cast a spell, except that it could say random things, and also it could say them only-occasionally.
     
    • Like x 1
  10. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    :Db i used to get bored waiting for raids to start, and miss stuff playing bejeweled on my phone, so he mocked it up. He worked for popcap until just recently actually. People kept being impressed you could even do stuff like that in lua. /shamelessly proud of my mate

    I think I remember that mod? That would have been like...2009? Ish?
     
    • Like x 1
  11. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I was surprised that it ran smoothly, given what I knew about the API. So, yeah, that was pretty impressive. And I am very glad they paid him to work on it, rather than doing their own in-house instead.

    And yeah, Chatterbox was 2009ish. I ragequit WoW over the RealID crap in mid-2010 or so, and haven't touched it since, but I think someone else took it over.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. Starcrossedsky

    Starcrossedsky Burn and Refine

    I'm... Completely boggled by the sample question they posed, because it's in no notation I've ever seen. I feel that that is definitely a flaw with their method right there - it's not testing me on whether I can use the logic or not when I can't even understand the question.
     
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    If you assume that it has to mean something, you can guess at what it might mean, and people apparently do.

    That's what I mostly do when reading code in languages I don't know. I submitted a patch to a Minecraft mod written in Scala. I'd never tried to use Scala before, I just sorta stared at other code and guessed at stuff.
     
  14. Exohedron

    Exohedron Doesn't like words

    The article states that they don't even really care if you got the question right, but that, as seebs said, you're supposed to guess; what they're testing for is consistency of your guesses of what the symbols mean across several questions, rather than whether you understand them the way the language (apparently Java) does.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  15. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    Is the answer that a and b both now equal 20?
     
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I believe so. My mental model:

    First line: "int a = 10;" I don't know what "int" means for sure, but this sounds like it's saying something similar to "let a = 10". Second line, "int b = 20", same thing. So at that point, a is 10 and b is 20. "a = b" can't possibly be an assertion of truth, so I assume it's changing a thing. So a now acquires whatever value b has. Since b is 20, a is now 20.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. Morven

    Morven In darkness be the sound and light

    Fortunately, and unlike some other companies out there (e.g. Google), Blizzard listened to the complaintstorm and backed off that policy change.
     
  18. Mala

    Mala Well-Known Member

    @seebs Yeah that would be right. That's about how I process code as well. Idk if I would've taken it a step farther and guessed that int meant integer if I didn't already know or not
     
  19. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Only sort of.

    First off: They never, ever, acknowledged the substance of any complaints. The one and only official statement they made (on the old forums, thus now deleted) was that the game and forums would be better off without the people who objected. Their backtracking messages referred only to the volume of complaints. And, for extra credit, what they said was that they wouldn't do it for the time being. Which, in conventional English, means "we will do it later".

    Secondly, when the new forums went live, they did actually put a real name on every page: The real name of the logged-in user. And the forums had no https support. Which means that if you were on a laptop, in a coffee shop, using the local wireless? Everyone there could see your real name and the name of at least one of your characters, if they wanted to.

    Thirdly, they told a number of lies during the whole process. For instance, they asserted repeatedly that the real name thing was okay because "real ID was only intended for use with people you know in real life". But they had it start out by default showing real names for all of your friends to all of your other friends. Furthermore, they wrote a lot of things about how to use it that clearly involved people you met in-game, and the forum thing, which they asserted they had been discussing and planning for weeks, was an absolutely crystal-clear intent to use the system with people you don't know IRL.

    Fourth, the idea was dangerously stupid. The problem they were supposedly solving was "trolls", but their proposed solution was to give the trolls a reliable way to inflict real-life pain on anyone they disliked without even having to post. Which is to say, to make it worse. The angry teenagers don't care if anyone knows who they are yet, whether or not they should.

    Fifthly, just-world fallacy: The idea that a system which allows people to be hurt is dangerous only to people who do things to deserve being hurt is painfully stupid, and suggests that no one at the company had ever even heard of LGBT users, even though one of the very first responses to the announcement was from a trans player.

    Sixthly, they never actually acknowledged any of that. And every aspect of Real ID that now offers some semblance of privacy, so far as I can tell, began to do so only after real people got hurt by it in a way that multiple people had pointed out to them would happen if they didn't have some privacy features.

    I don't really know what happened. My indirect guess is that the "merger" where the Activision people took over "marketing" and "publishing", leaving the old Blizzard people to focus on "games", resulted in a large deal with Facebook earlier that year, and the actual motivation for the proposed change was "link this to facebook". (Amusing side note: One of the people who told me she thought I was overreacting is someone whose facebook account did not, at the time, contain anything remotely similar to her legal name.) Thing being, "marketing deal with facebook" would be a case where the Activision people could override the Blizzard people, because it was "marketing" and not "game design".

    FWIW, I haven't given Blizzard a penny for anything since that announcement, and I have no regrets about this. Yes, their apology for the profanity-laden slew of homophobic slurs in the video they aired during Blizzcon was very nice. In fact, it is the nicest apology I've ever seen an MMO dev offer for choosing to run a video they edited which was full of homophobic slurs (allegedly bleeped out, but still quite recognizable). Possibly because no one else would have run it in the first place, because they would have realized that it was inappropriate.

    But at the end of the day, they proposed to endanger the lives of every trans user, every user with a recognizably ethnic name, and a whole lot of other people, and they never admitted that there was anything wrong with this, or that it could have had harmful effects. And they did indeed do several things which leaked real names galore (such as bugs in their addon API that made it easy to extract them for arbitrary users on at least one occasion). And several things which got people real-life harassed, repeatedly, before getting fixed. And I am pretty much done with them.
     
  20. Morven

    Morven In darkness be the sound and light

    I do suspect that was entirely the reason that they had that plan, since they had already started allowing feeds between Facebook and WoW (Since, AFAIK, gone).

    And you're right, nothing official came out that they actually regretted the idea, or saw any problem with it other than "it's unpopular". I have seen things from people from inside Blizzard showing that the idea was really unpopular among elements of the dev team, who did get the problem, but they weren't the decision-makers.

    It's unfortunate that even this is more than e.g. Google or Facebook have ever done about Real Names policies :(
     
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