BPD and Friendships

okay, I've thought about this a bit and:
I really don't have a clearly set 'this person is going to be my good friend'. it's more along the lines of 'I consider this person a friend and I like them' = 'time to set boundaries'. basically, once you know someone's borderline and you consider them a friend of some kind, which it sounds like you can detect, it is time to set at least A Boundary. and don't phrase it as "you're borderline so I think we need to codify some boundaries"; even if that's why you're doing it, say something more like "I consider us friends, and if it's okay with you, I'd like to codify some boundaries". this way, if the borderline is highly unusual and good at detecting unspoken boundaries, they can decline, but if they want it, they can agree. if they consider you a friend, they can agree; if they don't, they can reject the offer. and...it may not be a normal social protocol for you, but for me, it's....actually a pretty common social protocol. I actually make a point of, when I explain I'm borderline, requesting boundaries the person wants to set, and also setting mine. this sort of thing varies from person to person, but it isn't really all that uncommon, as you seem to think it is.

 

@chaoticArbiter do you remember the borderline friend i've talked to you about before?

after she broke up with her abusive fp, the fp immediately started darvo'ing her, and so my friend lost a significant portion of their mutual friend group

this was almost all of her friends, since she wasn't allowed to be friends with people fp didn't approve of, so it fell on me and another person to act as her moirails for a long while as she recovered from the relationship

but i don't have much energy, and sort of slipped away from the moirail role when i noticed her mental health was improving and that her friend group had not only recovered, but expanded as a result

and now i'm worried that this was the wrong thing to do. i didn't think she'd notice, since she now has more friends, support, and validation than she knows what to do with, but i'm not sure after reading all this. i don't consider her any less close of a friend, i just prefer to save my energy for being a moiral for those who need me as one

i still talk to her on a weekly basis, and am constantly messaging her with things i think she'd like, but i don't talk to her on a daily basis like i did during the rough times

 

@Ipuntya: I think she would have noticed. you could talk to her about it and explain why you're talking to her less, and that you don't value her any less and still like her a lot, if you think it's appropriate and would help, or you could leave it and see what happens. if it's really bothering us, we will eventually mention it to the person, but there are instances where it won't bother us to talk to someone less. if she has other friends now, she might be all right with talking to you less, because of the fact that she has more friends and more validation and more people to hang around with, and so is less reliant on you. at the same time, she might also have been able to understand what was happening; it's a toss up in this situation. you could ask her if she's worried about you two talking less; if she says no, it's fine, if she says yes, explain what's up.

 

I'm adding myself to the "doesn't know when friend level has been reached" pile. One time I only realized someone was a friend because they sent me a terrible article. XD

 

I'm still sort of wondering, though - doesn't it make more sense, instead of one person having to guestimate at what point the relationship has progressed such as boundary statements are needed, doesn't it make sense for the borderline person to ask, seeing as it's them who has that need in their healthy relationships and they can accurately judge at which point it might be required in the relationship? I mean even if you know they are BPD, that still doesn't mean you can specifically know what is needed at the exact time that the bpd person feels that it becomes relevant. And ofc I'm all for what you're saying if you yourself as the other person realise that it might be needed, but it seems odd to me that this is being framed as the non-borderline's responsibility to set up and broach with them when it's a matter of the other person's needs, and the other person might not even know that they have those needs if they don't know that they are borderline or know little about the disorder, as is the case with most people, I think.

 

well:
1. these are your needs and boundaries, not theirs, and therefore it's on you to express them. it is true that the borderline needs you to express your needs and boundaries clearly, but this is about you and you expressing your needs and boundaries, not theirs. therefore it's up to you to express these needs and boundaries. the borderline person can express their needs and boundaries at the time they feel those are required, but you expressing your needs and boundaries to them is something you have to do.
2. borderlines don't usually recognize that there's a need for a boundary discussion because even though we tend to struggle with boundaries, we often don't realize that. so we aren't going to ask you to express your needs or boundaries because we're very....us-focused and don't even tend to realize we might be overwhelming for others or crossing their boundaries.
like I've said before, borderlines tend to be a special case in terms of interaction, and this whole 'doesn't realize they're overwhelming for others' is part of that. we don't get that others have unspoken boundaries, and we aren't going to realize that you do--we're just going to assume that if you aren't speaking up, everything's fine. this is why it always startled and upset me when my ex would suddenly come out with "I'm pissed off about this thing you've been doing for two months now" because my reaction to this was "if it upset you two months ago, why are you only telling me now?" we are very aware of emotional changes, but we struggle with boundaries, and unless yours are clearly outlined, we're likely to cross them at least once, maybe more if you don't make us aware when we cross the boundary. it's better to head that off with you expressing your needs and boundaries, but because they're your needs and boundaries, it's on you to set them. we don't magically know where your boundaries lie, and we are very bad at realizing that that might be a discussion that needs to be had. there isn't a time when most of us are even going to realize such a conversation is relevant.

 

I think maybe the thing here - and I might be wrong, feel free to correct me if so! - is that Josie seems to be looking at this like a request to tell someone all the needs and boundaries that could possibly be relevant ever, whereas cA is advocating more that it's important to state the boundaries that are Actually Relevant, because otherwise it's unlikely that the hypothetical friend in question could pick them up.

For example, if I'm just talking to someone in general, I'm not likely to say out of the blue 'please don't talk about diets with me', because that may never come up, and it would just be weird. And I don't think cA is advocating that I do - more that if I was friends with someone with BPD and they were talking about diets with me, to speak up about it and ask them to stop. (And honestly I think one should do that with everyone, but it's more possible for some people to give off nonverbal signals to get others to change their behaviour, and that doesn't work here.)

Similarly, I would not necessarily say upfront 'I can't deal with talking more than twice per day' if I was talking with someone a couple of times a week - but if they started trying to talk to me more than I could handle, then I should say so upfront rather than trying to signal to them that they should stop without saying so.

Am I on the right path?

 

Unspoken boundaries and surprise boundary violations are not fun for anyone. This entire quote is pinging me with "yes hello Swirl it you."

Especially the "be firm but not harsh." Things that parse as abrasive, jagged, attacks digging into me? Almost all I process is pain and you deserve this, and I only remember the supposedly-intended boundary enforcement if I obsess about the situation long enough to figure out what happened. The pain of harshness distracts me so it's harder to follow the request.

...Isn't this stuff everyone? It's easier to be happy around happy people. And so much easier for people to be happy if I don't say anything that they dislike. And so much easier to be happy with them if I'm trying to make myself enjoy the things that they enjoy, so I can take part without feeling bored and empty and ashamed of not feeling it too.

 

yes! this is what I am attempting to explain. you don't need to tell someone all the needs and boundaries that could possibly be relevant ever, just the ones that are Actually Relevant. and if, at the time you are friends with a borderline person, you think of a boundary that you feel it's important to implicitly state, then state it.

 

so, if you can't think of boundaries to state, it's alright?

 

pretty much, yeah, though it is helpful to have a few boundaries preset, I think (not necessary, but helpful). general things like "you can't expect me to be always available" or things like that. basic needs/requirements for you to be able to live your life.

 

it sounds like sometimes the most important things to state are the things that many of us would normally expect don't need to be said, like the whole 'can't be available 24/7' thing, or am I reading too much significance into a throw away example?

 

you are definitely not reading too much significance into that. one of the things a lot of borderlines struggle with is needing constant, 24/7 contact and attention and validation. people can't give that, but we still need it, so we expect it, and then we get upset when people aren't available the second we require them to be available. so with a borderline, it's important to state that one of your needs is the need to have time to yourself or time to live your life--meaning you can't be available every time they need you and at their beck and call.

 

Thaaaaaaaaat makes a lot more sense. The way I was reading things was more "as soon as Friend status is reached, inform borderline of boundaries" rather than "make sure to explicitly state boundaries when needed rather than implying them or relying on hints or social cues"

 

oh. no, that's not really what I was trying to say. while it can be helpful to, if you realize you're friends with a borderline, set a few ground rules like "I can't always be available, I have a life", it's less "all boundaries ever needed ever right then" and more "when the moment arises, explicitly state boundaries/needs, because we don't do well with unspoken/implied/hinted boundaries". sorry it came across the other way :P

 

i find it difficult to understand how anyone could like implicit social stuff

i have years worth of spreadsheets and notes detailing the various social processes and tendencies people perform and not once have i been able to reliably record an implicit social boundary pattern

implicit social stuff is a nightmare to deal with and i can still hardly ever notice it