Shitposting Rave OOC: Anecdata Sharing and Policy Discussion

Long story short, the fight over the last couple days has made me realize that the rules I laid out for the shitposting rave are too vague to be useful, and we've been accidentally hurting each other for a while. It's kind of fitting, that around the same time that Kintsugi overall is discussing a big change about having a rule, so the shitposting rave (intended as an open-to-all-players casual game) is having a similar discussion.

We have a bunch of ranges in our boundaries and preferences of what we want in the rave. Some stuff is one person's favorite and another person's cause for boredom, some is unpleasant and unfun enough that we take breaks if we encounter it, and some is downright panic-inducing. Ignoring accounts works for some of us, spoiler tags work for some of us, and neither works for some of us.

Those are all legitimate feelings and boundaries. Nobody has to have the same boundaries as anybody else. We just need to figure out what the default boundaries in this game are, so that people can go in with some idea what to expect from it.



What I want from this thread is a chill discussion of this stuff. Everybody who's involved in the game, people who are considering joining the game, I'd like your input. If you're able and willing to, please mention stuff that crosses your boundaries. Please use the same accounts as you would use in the ooc thread; I want to have a decent headcount, and be sure that people are speaking for themselves.

I realize that saying these things in a public thread may not be possible; feel free to pm me if you'd rather have some privacy, I can mention your preferences while not mentioning who they came from. If PMing is not an option, let me know and we can see if there's anything else that would work. I do have a tumblr, and I have a discord, though I usually prefer not to use it.



Some distinctions that I would find very helpful for the purpose of figuring out how we're going to go forward:

- stuff that I have no interest in playing, but don't mind others doing

- stuff that I don't mind others doing, IF and only if I can easily avoid interacting with it while still participating in the game

- stuff that I am very uncomfortable with, and do not want in the game at all

* (these are not the only three gradations of preference on this stuff, they're just the three that came most easily to mind. feel free to disregard this scale and give your own if you have the words for it) *eta


Stuff I know we need more defined policies on:

- discussions of sexuality, and to what extent

- depictions of sexuality, and to what extent

- depictions of violence, especially graphic, and to what extent

- depictions of mind-control, and to what extent


Some ideas that have been raised:

- adding a list of "please spoiler tag this content" to the rules post at the start of the thread

- revising the rules of spr to make more content against the rules, and creating a second thread to divert that content into

- leaving spr nearly as is, with more specified but barely changed rules, and creating a second thread with more exclusionary rules re: difficult content



I intend to make a list of specific sorts of unwanted content and triggers and add it to this post, editing as we talk.

 

I'm kinda stressed and smelly right now, so I'm gonna be stepping away from the computer for a bit to do some things. Please be patient with me as we figure this stuff out. I do not want people to be hurt. I want us to have a common understanding to reduce how many of us get hurt. And I want to do it with some deliberation, partly so that we're less likely to be heated and fighty, and partly because I'm not here enough to do this as quickly as, say, the meta threads tend to go.

 

Relevant bit from other thread:

Everything but the gore is something I don't mind others doing if I can avoid it (i.e. with spoilering or ignoring). Gore is something I've done in a spoiler, but I talked with the other party in a private chat first to make sure they were okay with it. It doesn't personally bother me, I just suggested spoiling because it's fairly common for people to not want to see that.

The other categories I will ponder on and respond to after my nap.

 

This varies for me personally, I'm very lenient on this. I don't have issue with this because I often step away or skip pages in the rave.

I often step away HOWEVER I'm not fond of hyper violence in the rave. This I think needs to be spoilered anyway. Things that I absolutely need spoilered: abuse talk beyond vague refs to it
Ex for Abuse: "Yeah, I was also abused", "You're an abusive fuckhole!", "What the fuck what do you mean humans abuse their children?" is perfectly ok. Frank talk about abuse that isn't graphic is ok. Graphic talk about abuse is not, especially of the child abuse variety, and abuse happening in the rave is absolutely no.

The Full Sex, but we all knew that. I'm not comfortable with gore ect, again we all knew that was a line. I don't think any of these have been an actual problem though.


Now, onto this bit, I would say you're going to either want to stick this as T or M in an ESRB rating. I lean towards M because I've seen nearly tame games rated M, but here we go.

The problem here is how do you want to split it? An example is Batman Arkham City is rated T for teen, which is 13+.

Versus Watch Dogs 2 which is M 17+

I would personally tie these together. Discussions lie in the same place as depictions wrt the ESRB however if it is being discussed in an educational way I do not see a problem. So long as all the parties communicate and someone says when enough is enough. You know?

Let's go for our T for Teen example:

That is what the ESRB rates for 13+ basically.

Here's our M for Mature:

This is what the ESRB rates for 17+.

As a note, the man that does die is not graphic. The shot and killed by an officer is based completely on Marcus' death scenes. I will note that death doesn't seem to be an issue in the SPR since rave magic. I think the death is what pushes WD2 over, but I'm not sure.

I'm only ok with mind control if both parties EXPLICITLY state they're ok with it. I would prefer for them to state this in the SPR OOC and this goes for even me and PR. I'm not fond of it in general but I know it's a squick / trigger for a lot of people.

I think a combination of number one and number three is your best bet, honestly. If you make rules you're going to lose people.

Edit: I can't numbers. Replaced two with three.

 

Rules are actually necessary for games tbh, @Mendacity. Especially when there's no computer program controlling everything and it's all a matter of personal decisions--if there are no rules it's very hard to settle certain kinds of disagreements. (If you can't tell, I'm not a video gamer, I'm a tabletop gamer.)

 

i feel like that kind of rule structure in tabletop games is more for settling disagreements about who wins/when you succeed/what actions are possible (in-character) than what actions are permissible (out-of-character), so the metaphor seems misapplied?

 

This is what I get for ADHD reading that last bit: I think any secondary thread will kill the other. Like, it will leech everything out of it. People will either just stay in the 'tame' SPR because of shame or everyone will flood to the NSFW SPR because of other reasons. I've seen this happen multiple times in RP spaces.

I am also a tabletop gamer. I was also the roleplay officer over the largest guild on my WoW server and I have also run multiple successful rp sites. Video games require rules as well, I was using the ESRB rating system because it's better than the others we have in the US.

I meant more rules than they are and the SPR is not a traditional game. The SPR is the equivalent to quick walk up roleplay in WoW or anything else. Everything is fast, loose, and if you want something more serious then you go other places. Locking the rules down on something that was previously loose is going to cause backlash.

 

I´m in favour of this idea, really not ok with the second idea, and "Meh, I guess." On the third.

I am not in favour of a whole bunch of rules. For me, the freeform play of the Spr is part of itßs attraction. Consider stuff like personified fourth wall.

Thing I´d want spoilered or fade to blacked (I do not care which):
Teh full sex. Pictures of real spiders or images that are so realistic you can´t tell the difference. (Has never come up, ever but i´m putting it in)
Abuse, of anyone, any age, by anyone. Detailed talk of same. (I´m gonna shamelessly refer you to Mendacity´s post about it above.)


Might add other stuff later.

 

(Point of clarification, the scene the ESRB is referring to is actually an execution by a police officer that is recorded and replayed for the main character in a side mission.)

THAT SAID:

I've been thinking over how I would define "graphic" or "gratuitous" depictions of violence, sexuality, and/or nudity, given that the spr is text-based and not visual. So "graphic", in this case, would refer to explicit and detailed descriptions of a thing, whether that thing is a scientific description of a kidney or the eating of a small animal.

"The thylacine is eating a rabbit, but looks up at the noise," is not graphic, whereas a more graphic depiction would be:

Spoiler: animal death

"The thylacine is carrying a rabbit, already gored, some skin hanging off. Most of its internal organs have been devoured already and there is blood splattered on its muzzle, but enough of the muscle remains for it to chew on. It throws its head back to gobble a section of thigh, then looks around at the noise that startled it."

So, that's graphic defined (for me.) Gratuitous is a little harder. It means excessive and without purpose, but what one person considers "purposeless" in a roleplay is another person's favorite mode of description. Not everyone hates purple prose, after all. I haven't come to any conclusions about that yet.

Though I used a depiction of violence for my example, I think that definition of "graphic" works pretty well for sexuality and instances of nudity? I've had characters in minimal clothing before, but avoided describing them beyond 'here's what all that entails' because I didn't feel comfortable focusing on the specifics of what is showing. In terms of "graphic depictions of sexuality" I think that would cover actual sex (which is flat disallowed in the SPR anyways) as well as detailed descriptions of genitals, sexual acts or kink in a clinical sense, and/or the detailed specifics of how characters prefer to engage in sex. Someone saying "yeah, I had an orgy" isn't the same as that character talking about who was sticking what in which places.

For basic info gathering on players:

I... will have to get back to you on this. I'm having a hard time actually twigging onto things that I'm just uninterested in that I think are still okay for the SPR (with the ideal of it being accessible and mostly SFW) so I'll have to think on this.

See above, but with the note that I would prefer detailed descriptions of violence be spoilered. I might still participate in it and engage with that violence myself (see: Triage and Sawbones doing detailed medical care, which did get graphic at points) but I think it would probably fit the tone of the rave better if it were spoiled? The last couple times graphic threats of violence have popped up, they've been spoiled, which I think is fair.

The Full Sex, and honestly I'm pretty Meh on characters making out over the course of several posts too, especially when it's clear it's just a lead up to The Full Sex. I feel like once it hits the groping part of the situation, it should probably be shuffled off screen.

 

Quick note because kind of urgh at the moment but I really DO NOT want strict rules in the rave of the sort seen in a more orderly game. Part of the appeal of the rave is the lack of that and the ability to just pop in and out and not have to clear things constantly. I'll do the three whatever the fucks of boundaries next because EH.

- stuff that I have no interest in playing, but don't mind others doing - Can't really think of anything that I'm uninterested in playing right now in terms of like...content that is violence or sex related? If I'm uninterested it's more a then current mood thing.

- stuff that I don't mind others doing, IF and only if I can easily avoid interacting with it while still participating in the game - Again I can't really think of anything at the moment. I very specifically do not want my triggers tagged for though. At all. I will say that discussion of the details of past abuse of a sexual or torture related variety I can understand spoilering and am fine with spoilering. I will not be fine with a hardfast must be followed with no exceptions rule about spoilering it unless we very clearly specify shit though. This abuse applies to both child abuse and the abuse of adults. Non-torture related gore and mentions of death, killing, or violence are fine I think so long as things are spoilered and people are able to choose not to interact with it. Black humor I think is on the table as being entirely fine, though if people get uncomfortable that should be brought up outside of things and discussed.

- stuff that I am very uncomfortable with, and do not want in the game at all - This is often less my being uncomfortable and my more wanting things not to explode and people to get upset. Graphic depictions of torture, rape and sexual assault, mind control that is not cleared with everyone in the game, and full-on sex, consenting or no, meanwhile are things that I don't think belong in the game at all. Basically I only feel it's inappropriate entirely once we cross a threshold of intensity.

 

I agree with what has been said before wrt content levels and also that I'd prefer the rules to stay night non-existant since this isn't a serious game, it's a dressing room with questionable physics and reality content. I think what we have as to the guidelines is good, we just need to properly communicate ooc more properly and get better at both saying and asking if we are uncomfortable.

I mean I'm unlikely to interact with debuff/mindcontrol-y/drugs-that-change-perceptions stuff unless I've arranged it with someone I trust and then I likeeeeely won't do it in the rave? If it happens near my characters I'll shamelessly go "no, rave magic" and that's that.

Probably? Nothing???

Teh Full Sex and unspoilered hyperviolence, so basically what had already been previously disallowed.

 

I'm uncomfortable with giving black humour a blanket exemption in that Ipuntya clearly thought Honktimus Prime was funny and many of the rest of us didn't, and also because a lot of people love to come back at you when they upset you with 'it was just a joke!!!! lighten up!!!!'.

 

Hence why I said if it upsets people it needs to be discussed out of the thread. Potentially with apologies and stopping of the behavior.

 

- why I hate "rave magic" sfm right now

I've thought about it for a long time, and one of the primary things that I think needs to be changed is the "rave magic" rule which allows people to decide whether or not an attack affects their character. It seemed like a good idea to me in the beginning because combat is one of my least favourite aspects of role-playing, but it's being abused to create a situation where people can commit any kind of violence they want to and nobody can do anything about it as long as they control both the abusive character and the victim character.

A modification that might help is that perhaps "rave magic" stops working when your character commits a violent act against another character that actually goes through--you're only protected from violence by other parties as long as you're not being violent yourself.

- involvement of minors as players

So right now I'm kind of hugely uncomfortable with this. I think it's okay for anyone to have fluid boundaries, but I don't want to RP with any minors (or anyone else) unless they've read the rules and/or the old threads and believe they can handle what we're used to doing.

I don't want the rules of the game to suddenly change when new people join, particularly not if it's open to all comers. I don't want to have to ask who's online before I post things that don't violate the rules of the game, either.

And if minors want to play the game and post sexual/violent content themselves, they need to be aware that the only way we have to guess where their boundaries might be is by watching what they do and say. I do not think minors who feel that they are not emotionally strong enough to state their boundaries clearly OOC when they need to should be in RPs with adults.

- stuff that I have no interest in playing, but don't mind others doing

Most RP stuff that falls into this category doesn't apply in the SPR. As an example, I really hate scenarios where my character has to scrabble just to get three meals and a place to sleep because I've been really broke IRL so roleplaying that scenario isn't fun for me.

- stuff that I don't mind others doing, IF and only if I can easily avoid interacting with it while still participating in the game

My problem with this category is that I need it to be made clear that it's also not happening right in front of my character. Spoilering does not help unless it is also specified somehow that the interaction is taking place somewhere that others can't easily see rather than right in the middle of the conversation people are having. I would not and do not enjoy playing POV characters who would avert their eyes and pretend they don't see these things happening right in front of them. (I also question the intelligence of villains who would pull this shit in front of a room full of witnesses.)

- stuff that I am very uncomfortable with, and do not want in the game at all

1. Onscreen torture of beings that are capable of feeling pain, ever under any circumstances again.

2. Onscreen intentional abuse of beings that are capable of feeling pain, onscreen sexual harassment, onscreen harassment of rape/abuse survivors, onscreen emotional and physical bullying -- unless the "rave magic" rules are changed so that resistance can be effective.

- discussions of sexuality, and to what extent
- depictions of sexuality, and to what extent

I don't want to feel pressured to RP smut with someone (although I won't say I'd never be willing to do it if asked).

I do not care what level of sexual activity takes place in the game either by implication (fade-to-black) or in posted and spoilered RP, as long as it is 100% consensual. This includes not doing it where other people have to see it happening without their consent, so it shouldn't take place where all the other characters have to watch.

I am very uncomfortable in an environment where biological/anatomical discussions are treated as being equivalent to treating everyone to a detailed description of your last hookup/Tinder date.

I think that with respect to consensual sexual activity, everything that has been done and discussed in the rave so far is okay by me.

- depictions of violence, especially graphic, and to what extent
- depictions of mind-control, and to what extent

My problem is being forced to watch/experience suffering, not gore--particularly if I'm helpless to stop it thanks to rave magic, which is triggery as fuck. I'm not any more okay with mental rape than I am with the physical kind.

- discussions of things that characters suffered in the past

I'm not going to tell anyone that they have to censor their character's backstory. Spoilers and content warnings would be nice when dealing with topics that upset lots of people.

- discussions of crimes characters committed in the past

Depends. If your character is bragging about how much pain you caused someone else, don't expect everyone to be nice to your character. If your character is contrite and trying to change that's a different thing.

I do not think "black humour" should get a blanket exemption because not everyone thinks the same things are funny.

As an addendum:

I personally adore many black comedies (Profit, Nurse Jackie, Weeds, etc). I even like Hannibal, which is not funny, tbh, but I wouldn't want to RP with Hannibal in the SPR unless he was going to be IC and not, you know, kill his dinner in front of everyone in the Rave because his player thought it would be high-larious.

BUT--for me, there's a major level of distance I have when I'm watching or reading something that I can put down and come back to. This distance does not exist when I'm playing a character and stuff happens in front of my character and I'm reacting to it as I read it in the persona of that character. I'm aware that my character is neither really me nor real. But at the same time, it's still very vividly happening in my imagination, and most of the characters I choose to play as POV characters are people I enjoy pretending being.

That's why I can't play characters I personally think are horrible unless I'm consciously doing them as villains. I can be Bill for short periods of time and do terrible things because at that point I'm the puppet master, and I know that my players enjoy fighting him. But there's a limit to how long I can keep Bill in my brain, yanno?

 

fwiw, i am strongly in favor of keeping the rave magic aspect and would be uncomfortable participating without it. i think the best way to resolve situations when

is to ask out of character for them to stop, or to ask out of character if they're okay with your characters attacking them for it.

but then, i am a lot more comfortable with the loose fiction of the rave where people can just have their character not perceive or react to some of the stuff that's happening. i get that cT can't do that. but if we nail down a firmer fabric of reality in the rave, it will get rid of a lot of the reasons it appeals to me.

 

I think people in general have felt pretty inhibited from asking people to stop. That's caused some resentment to build up. We need to change that atmosphere so that people feel allowed to ask for something to stop or change.

 

Just remembered something. So given what sparked the initial conversations and things I've gone through in the past I think it might be best to ban self-inserts. There's too much blurring of ic and ooc with that sort of thing, I feel. I've not been comfortable with it for a while but given that we're talking about this now I feel it is pertinent to bring up.

Blue's suggestion is how I prefer the rave magic situation be handled. I don't want stricter rules where that is concerned. It'd make it less fun for me.

 

Yes this.

 

I´m with blue. The rave magic is hugely important for making the SPR a place that is safe and easy on my spoons for playing.

 

For me, this category would include things like recreational-but-responsible drug use.

Active, being-played-out mind control, like with @Narcissus, for instance, makes me extremely uncomfortable. I personally don't want it in the game, period - currently I have accounts which use it as a major feature of their story ignored. I'd include things like demon possession in this category, but not discussion of it happening in the past or something like @Mara's charm which can be easily ignored and has no specific instruction (AFAIK that is). Also, The Full Sex.

As far as discussion of sex goes, I personally find @Mendacity's examples of references to abuse useful for categories I'm okay with - things like @Life Support of Iacon saying to his kid who asked "sex should feel good for everyone involved" I'd consider fine, non-graphic discussion of sexual habits and differences like the point that was made about some people enjoying sexual pain is fine. I think when it gets more specific or personal than a sex ed class (e.g. someone talking in general about a good experience they had, a detailed strip scene meant to be sexual), a spoiler should be considered, and anything more graphic than that (e.g. the specifics of an encounter, or anything more detailed than "I like when (bondage, biting, blowjobs) happen" it might not belong in the rave.