Lizard's totally unnecessary snek thread

Pastel is another "photoshop" gene, but where Enchi looks like you cranked the contrast dial up to 11 so you get an almost pixellated look, Pastel softens the pattern, leaving the edges dark and crisp but letting center of the spots fade out.

Butter Desert Ghost vs Pastel Butter Desert Ghost
Enchi vs Enchi Pastel

It's a good all-purpose gene to add depth to the color pattern without changing the actual shape of the pattern.

 

I still have no idea what's going on but goddamn I love reading other people infodumping about stuff. Also this is making me remember that time I desperately wanted a snek (but I want birds more and alas I can only afford one).

 

Yeah, it's really easy to get in over your head with reptiles, too. In one year, aside from the initial purchase, I've spent less than 300 to feed house and care for the two snakes that I have. Most of that cost is ordering frozen feeders online, and most of the money for THAT goes into the shipping. That will steadily decline as they get older and go longer between meals. Plus I just upgraded them to their adult tubs and other than building a rack and adding some furnishings, they're pretty much set supply-wise for the rest of their lives at this point. I can guarantee my dogs and cats all cost more over their lifetimes in food and supplies, it's easy to see how some people get into too much too fast because snakes amazing and so cheap after set up and what to you mean I can't have another snake?? No thirty isn't enough!!

 

@Lizardlicks how do you feel about breeding spiders? i know it's a base morph and really great and versatile but the neuro issues give me pause (i, admittedly, do not plan on breeding snakes anytime soon and you def know wayyyyyyyy more than me)

 

SPIDERS

Spiders are a touchy business because of the neuro issues. Some of them can display a sort of shakiness to their movements called "wobble". In really bad cases the snake does more than wobble a bit, it flops about and contorts itself in corkscrews. It's made worse by stress, and has yet proven to be predictable in how badly it will present in any animal's offspring. Snakes that displayed little wobble or a lot have been both been documented as producing babies that are the polar opposite. It is linked with the gene, and not due to inbreeding. The first spider morph produced had it, and no matter how many other unrelated morphs you cross it out to, if spider shows up, it has a chance to inherit it. Despite this, even most snakes that have it really bad still eat, grow, shed, mate, and lay eggs with little or no difficulty, and some people think the weirdness is "cute" or "quirky".

From anything I've been able to dig up, not a lot has been done with line breeding to see if it can be successively reduced. Most breeders seem to fall on either side of two extremes: either they don't see anything wrong with breeding even the bad cases since the animals still function in all other respects, or they won't touch the morph at all and consider it cruel to produce ANY of them. I do plan on breeding my spider girl (like I said, mojave bee is one of the ones I want and I would like to add a cailco to that for a calibee), but Serket displays next to no wobble. Seriously, the only spider quirk she has is that sometimes she misses the rat on a strike. I think that if a breeder is going to add spider into the morphs they want to work with, that they should do it it responsibly and work to improve the morph in all respects (actually I think this should be true of every morph, but especially the ones that can have health impacting genetic issues). That means selecting your stock carefully, and not breeding the corkscrewing train wreck animals. If Serket throws any babies that wobble or corkscrew, I plan to either keep them and care for them myself or rehome them with an experienced keeper under the restriction that they're PET ONLY. If she seems to produce more of them than an occasional one off, I will remove her from my breeding schedule permanently and continue enjoying her as a pet. Only her offspring that similarly show as little neuro problems as she does will be held back for breeding. I don't think the potential for wobble will ever be eliminated, but one of my goals is to produce a line that reliably has little to no visible issues.

 

This is all so cool *chingands* it reminds me a lot of when people talk about breeding bettas, which is just as interesting as far as colors and tail types and form go. @Lizardlicks do you know of any reputable breeders for getting a first snek? I don't plan on breeding, I just want a nice, single pet is all. I have a 50g and unless I divide it then I don't plan on getting anymore than the one. A bp or a hognose would be super neat imo, but since you mostly seem to know about bps I suppose I'm asking about breeders for them c:

 

@Alska See if you can find a reptile show like Repticon, that's how I found my breeder, Reptile Collective.

You're able to talk to them in person, and it's pretty easy to tell quality by how they display their snakes.

For example, RC had their babies in individual locked display cases, and monitored those cases. I watched a guy pick up each individual leopard gecko, discover one that had just that morning gone into pre-shed and immediately put a damp paper towel into its little tub.

They were also able to give me a personality description and feeding habits of ALL their babies, including the "boring" normals. That's part of why I picked Angel. She's apparently been an enthusiastic eater her whole life, and was fed on frozen AND live, so she'd have no trouble transitioning to whatever her new owner wanted to feed her.

Also, a shopper was getting one for her son, and unsure if they wanted to keep it for 20-30yrs and they TAKE BACK animals. They want to make sure their animals get a "forever home" and won't end up on Craigslist. That is the best indicator of ANY animal breeder imho.

By contrast, another breeder had something like ten normals piled into a single 30gal tub with "Asst. Normals, $30" scribbled on the glass.

The only other online breeder I know about is Backwater Reptiles, and they're apparently a no-go. Reports of DOA snakes in the mail and spiders with a NASTY wobble that were sold as healthy.

(I know you asked for Lizard but that's my 2c)

 

Also, a noodle in MUCH better lighting

She's a bit dull, she's not quite in blue but close. However, her colors are much more visible in this light. I still can't manage to capture the red tones though.

 

@Alska what Aviari said, but if you're like me and don't have any good reptile shows in your area, the next best place I would suggest in going to ball-pythons.net. The senior members and mods are all very knowledgeable and helpful, and anyone trying to sell snakes, equipment, or anything else on the forum has to be in good standing with the community, and have a reputation for knowing what they're doing. You can find a lot of good, small scale breeders like the guy I got my girls from.

Some other breeders I can recommend by name alone in the industry. In particular, check out Brian Gundy, or Justin Kobylka. They have smaller operations that focus on quality in just a few morphs. they don't have as much selection as what the bigger guys have, but they make up for it in gorgeous animals (and Brian in particular produces snakes with the absolute sweetest temperaments).

For better selection you can go with the big names, but be forewarned that these guys have been running for decades and are industry giants. Most of the time you're going to pay a premium because of the name behind the snake and the fact that these guys run big facilities that produce a lot of overhead. a few off the top of my head:

BHB Reptiles (Brian Barczyk)
Bob Clark
Royal Constrictor Designs (Garrick DeMeyer)
Constrictors Unlimited (Mike Wilbanks)
NERD
Ralph Davis

Since you're looking for only a pet, another option I would suggest and encourage is to see if there are any reptile rescues in your area. Check facebook to see if you can find one nearby. You'll get an already establish snake and be giving a scale baby a good home!

 

do you know if there is such a thing as a petting zoo for noodle friends? ouo I like petting the snake buddies but as I said I couldn't keep one because i am super wuss about snake food.

 

This is making me want my own noodle babbu, but since I may be getting a kitten, I will wait on the noodle.

 

ooo good idea thanks! my mom suggested the local aquarium/zoo which has a reptile section and asking whether I could cuddle the snakes there!

 

Yeah, lots of stores will let you handle their snakes. I know some breeders Like Gundy do out reach programs too, where they bring their calmest and sweetest animals to schools and other functions and talk about the animals to help foster love and respect and dispel biased fears. A lot of those are aimed at kids though. You'd have to check around your local area to see if there's anyone who does that sort of thing. Again, facebook and google are your friends for this.

At the moment for ball pythons (and most other snakes that I'm aware of) most breeders focus on the color. There are a few who take temperament into account (I intend to be one of them), and while I don't know of anyone breeding to DECREASE size, there's a few working with a newer line to produce larger snakes. They're call sub-Saharan giants and they average about 4.5-5000 grams in the fully grown females (versus the average 2500-3500 females).

Water snakes are neat! Not a lot of people keep them because of their kind of messy eating habits and the fact that they have a rep from being kind of nasty tempered though. Not sure I'd keep it IN the tank with the guppies if you intend to also keep the guppies. It'll eat them.

 

They do tend to mellow out if you handle them regularly, so if you aren't afraid of a nippy hatchling baby that would be just fine.

 

Reptile intelligence and sociability is hard to breed in or measure.

Their teeny brains are mostly oriented on "can I eat this" and/or "can this eat me"

BPs are a solitary species, and reptiles in general don't seek people out. At best people are viewed as "large warm tree that has not tried to eat me." You could definitely breed for temperament though. BPs are incredibly chill snakes as a rule, and you can easily breed chill snakes for chillier snakes.

You could probably test by putting prey in a maze and they figure out the maze to get the food, but any intelligence development beyond food is probably out of their range.

 

Considering the ball python's preferred hunting method is "sit in a borrow and wait" that probably wouldn't test a whole lot lol. Beeps on the whole are... they're not very bright. Snakes in general don't compare well with other critters like monitor lizards and iguanas, but ball pythons in particular are kind of bottom of the rung. They're chill and sweet and lovable plops though, and that's why we like 'em!