Boundaries: How to have them and how to enforce interpersonally on the forum level

An example for KingStarscream above:
No means no: "Please stop pinging me in this topic" (Imo this includes thinking twice aobut whether you should be engaging their arguments. That doesn´t mean never engage with the argument of a person who has left, especially if they´re just taking a break, but consider if you have to or if someone still engaged holds a similar position and you can discuss with them.)
Please stop: "I´m leaving so you can´t talk about this topic anymore" (Exception here: if the topic is the person themselves or involves them very directly, like debugging, then yes it is a fair boundary to ask the argument stop entirely.)

 

Hmm. I have some thinking to do on inclusive wording for that, bc it feels like it should be a distinct boundary in itself?
maybe something like

- You have the right to ask people to stop talking about you in a thread if you are not present

- If people are processing hurtful actions taken toward them in their own threads, you still have the right to ask and point out it's not okay to treat insult/attack you personally if that is occurring, but the other users have the right to say no.
- If people are pointing out to you that you have behaved in an abusive manner, while this can be very painful to read and process, it is not reasonable to ask them not to do that. An environment in which accidental toxic behavior is not pointed out is not healthy. If the criticism shifts into attacking and insulting, the same standard boundaries regarding that apply.
- Not all interpersonal conflict on the forum will be because of abusive or toxic behavior. Sometimes mental illnesses will interact poorly. "People need to be able to point out problems, but people also need to be able to take some time and breathe and quietly process without constant new input." (@Codeless thank you for that phrasing)
- Conflict is messy. There will be competing access needs - some people desperately need to process the aftermath of a conflict, especially if they feel like they were treated unfairly. Others don't want to see anything to do with it. When two valid boundaries rub up against each other and a conflict continues to occur, consider asking a third party to arrange a mutual ignore, or a TCHGB thread to examine these conflicting issues.
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this one is complex, because we have people feeling like they can't point out toxic behavior. Silently tolerating abusive/unhealthy/toxic behavior from another user does a disservice to everyone involved and can be really dangerous.

eta: added additional subpoint to this one in response to feedback because NUANCE.

 

@KathyGaele's Sub Yeah if there's anything Kintsugi has taught me it's that I carry around a lot more anger than I'm consciously aware of and that can have bad consequences for other people I never intend. There's probably also a reason my "I feel threatened" response goes in the direction of blind anger and a reason it tends to come up so often in certain contexts here but... yeah, stuff to talk about w/ my therapist. I will try to keep in mind the apology thing cause that sounds like a good idea that's in line with my beliefs about how you should treat other people, I'm just not sure how it's going to mesh with the feeling that other people are misrepresenting me as a slight against me, whether or not I think the misrepresentation is willful.

Thanks for talking to me about this, you have been helpful. Make sure you're keeping your own spoons up too.

 

yes, but not all interpersonal issues are toxic or abusive behaviour from one or both parties. sometimes it´s just bad brainweird crossover. I also explicitely mentioned debugging because that what I was thinking of. Ppeople need to be able to point out problems, but people also need to be able to take some time and space to breathe and quietly process without constant new input.

This is a thing for me, where even if I´m in the wrong and hurt someone, I need some space to breathe and let my anger subside before I can make an apology that isn´t just made through gritted teeth.

 

Oh, absolutely, sorry. Would the proposed boundary on debugging on page 2 help with the part, viewed alongside this one? Or do I need to make a phrasing change to make it clear that it's understood that not all interpersonal conflict is abusive?
eta: actually it costs me nothing to do that last part anyway, and being as explicitly clear as possible is only a good thing here, one sec.

 

(That is another thing: Please assume good faith on apologies unless you have reason to believe otherwise. Be aware that peoples tone can differ and is not necessarily and indicator of sincerity. For example again, my apologies tend to sound stilted because I rationally believe that I should apologize, but am often still angry at the person, which takes time and me being able to disengage and breathe to go away.
More in the boundary part: You are allowed to put a person on ignore or otherwise disengage from them for any reason. Putting someone on ignore only affects you directly, so it should be used as needed.

The latter. That one is really important imo.

 

@Codeless Same hat. And being told "maybe you need to tap out now" has allowed me to do that more & de-escalate things on my end.

 

i might just stick this one wholecloth in the op rn, maybe put in a 'try to' if that's okay with you, because sometimes it's really hard.

 

I think that (and correct me if I'm wrong, Cody) this also applies to like...

If two people get into a snit over, idk, the validity of Wrench/Marcus versus Marcus/Dusan shipping (and yes, I know this is a slightly absurd example, bear with me) it's valid for someone to say, "I am leaving this conversation, do not drag me back in," but not valid for them to say, "I am leaving this conversation, there had better not be any more discussion of Marcus/Dusan when I come back."

The first is a boundary that can be expressed and enforced. The second is a silencing tactic.

And again, this does get messy-- "I'm leaving and this is a SFW thread, so if we could stop talking about sexual kinks we have here that would be fucking fantastic" is a valid expression of a boundary and a reiteration of a forum guideline. "I'm leaving and no one had better post Homestuck in my threads again" can also be a valid expression of a boundary, especially if none of those threads are Homestuck threads-- but if that person was the originator of the Hiveswap thread, that would be nigh-impossible to comply with.

I think that erring on the side of 'stopping the discussion' might help, even if you have that really really good point to make. Giving it a day or two, seeing if someone else in that discussion has an argument that point could work with, posting that point removed from the context of the original discussion-- sure. But right now, we err on the side of 'you're trying to silence me' more often than not, and that has potential to go some very bad places.

 

Yeah, Pls fix my typos, I´m giving blanket permission to fix typos in my stuff in general. If it´s a whole word that seems in the wrong place, you can ask me if you need to, that´s a bug not a feature.

Edit: KingStarscream, yeah pretty much. I did mention either engaging with someone still present, or another option might be to save what you wanna say into your own vent or the howling void for later.

 

I will do my best, I tend to make a few of my own. Also, did putting your phrasing as an additional subpoint to previous thing help with the concern there? Because yes, absolutely you are right that's a really valid concern to have and I'm trying to ensure this is as smooth a read as possible

 

that's a good example, actually, since i have got into fandom issues like that on kintsugi. :D and you're right about how it should be handled. :D

 

I´m sorry but my processing of words and stuff is failing can you tell me or link me to the thing you want me to look at, or quote it at me?

 

Oops, my bad.

amended in response to your feedback there c:

 

also am gonna give it another hour to see if there are any proposed amendments on boundary drafts on page 2 & 3, and then cycle the into the OP. That does not mean people can't debate them, disagree, or propose different wording, I am just liable to forget things during my break and I don't want important things to get lost.
Once I stop responding, it'll be because the ban has gone through (i need that because I am awful at stepping back for self care :/) so don't worry about pinging me. Ideally, if peeps propose additional boundary wording, it'd be rad if I could be pinged on the in-thread final draft (as in, when people stop talking about that one and move on, see above, it doesn't mean that people can't debate, disagree or propose different wording later) so I can cycle it into the OP quickly and easily when I come back C:

 

I'd like to offer my services as a reporter for anonymous statements. I'm a generally uninvolved party in all of this, and do not plan to be involved, beyond posting statements (if people would like). I don't know if this is useful, and if it's not wanted I will remove it, but I thought people might be more comfortable submitting stuff to someone who will just anonymously post it and not engage beyond that.

 

I think that's super useful actually, I'll put a note in the third post about that if you're sure.

 

Yup I´m ok with that, thank! (And not your bad, not something you could know was a thing right this moment.)
And with that I´m gonna be back when i can words again.

 

Cycled things through a little early bc of getting itchy to participate in other threads, and if i do that then I just will wind up not leaving again. Please try to keep things civil in here while I'm gone!

 

Yep, I'm willing to do that. Just to be clear: My plan, if I get any statements, is to post them as-is with no indication of who said it. All I'll do is copy and paste whatever is sent to me in an unattributed quote in this thread. If I get multiples, I'll try to aggregate them into one post to keep things neater, in separate unattributed quotes.

Edit (1:36 PM, 09/26/2017): I will also try to appropriately spoiler for NSFW/topics that may be upsetting. Please let me know if something needs to be spoilered, or if there are certain terms I should use in the spoiler message to warn about the content. Once again, I'll try my best, but I might mess up, so please bear with me.