Undertale - Pet dogs and date a skeleton!

Spoiler

Yeah uh... the fact that Toriel waits for Kris for half an hour and then just goes home and read a book and waits for them to show up (or not)? Your kid is missing, lady.

And Kris not reacting at all when Ralsei unmasks himself is also super weird.

Some of this could just be Toby making a darker, grittier game because the world is shittier now, but who knows.

(disclaimer that I never finished the no-mercy run because it made me too sad, so I don't know a lot about Chara and what they do)

 

Spoiler: Undertale spoilers

tl;dr, Chara wanted to free the monsters and kill all the humans, and to do that they killed themself and convinced Asriel to take their soul and cross the Barrier to kill the 6 other people and get the souls needed to destroy it.
The Asriel half of the fusion ended up stopping the Chara half from attacking the humans, which ended in both of them dying.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, and there are very few kids who would have that sort of idea without something fuckin nasty prompting it. Esp as the dreemurs didn't seem to be training that kind of extremist thought into Chara, they came to the underground with it.
I know some people who are like 'well there doesn't need to be a reason the kid is Evil' and they're right too but man something happened to chara. willing to bet on it.

 

@Kathy Jones

Spoiler: Just Original Undertale Endgame Spoilers

Well Asriel does say Chara didn't fall for 'very happy reasons', so I mean. The game itself definitely implies a history of abuse. Actually I'd argue there's a level of suicidal ideation implied both in the cases of Chara and Frisk, or at bare minimum, a desire to run away.

@sidneyia
I'd recommend watching Flowey's end speech from No Mercy alone, just for a better understanding of him. Some big Asriel/Flowey details are in that small speech.

 

Spoiler: undertale spoilers, more abuse cw

right?
also like, toriel hasn't sat well with me since I finished the game. you have a kid with severe suicidal ideation and...you respond to this by just blunting everything sharp in the house?
and when frisk tries to leave, she Mother Knows Bests so hard she's willing to kinda beat the shit out out them for going against her wishes to Test The Strength Of A Small Child. And then once you go through, she blocks off the door?? And doesn't answer your calls????
You set yourself up as a parental figure for this kid and then take it back when they might actually desperately need your help until you deign to change your mind? god.

 

Spoiler: toriel phone calls

if you try to call toriel while the annoying dog is in your inventory it reveals that the annoying dog has her phone so presumably the reason she never picks up is that her phone was stolen

 

Spoiler: toriel

That's what I've assumed for years, personally. Before finding that out I just kind of read it as like...If people leave I get sure that they fucking hate me and want nothing to do with me so it's best not to answer them at all ever and to just...disappear into the aether. Regardless of what our relationship before was.

But that's projection.

Honestly I just think it's that the dog stole her phone.

I do think she's got issues as a mom but I wouldn't really peg her as a narcissist.

 

Spoiler

Personally, I feel like I understand all of where Toriel is coming from but idk if a rebuttal is necessarily needed here?

I feel people are a bit harsh on her and that I could explain most of those things but it's okay to view her differently.

Spoiler

The amount of pure vitriol I've seen from Asgore fans specifically directed at her Really bothers me though but that's a personal gripe.

 

Spoiler

I'd be curious to hear, honestly? Just because she's one of my favorite characters and I'm interested in hearing takes on her. Like not as a rebuttal to anything just out of curiosity.

 

Spoiler: Undertale

Well, these are just airing my thoughts on her, and personally I'm like... fond of Toriel and it's cool if some people aren't. Alternate takes and all that. And I can GET why some people have alternate takes on her. But hm. My opinion...

Well, I'm fond of Toriel. I just think she's a complicated woman who's seen a lot of child death. Like, really, when I see discussions about her I feel like she can't win... she's either bad for not actually managing to keep Frisk locked under key, or she's bad for testing them, or she's bad for saying they shouldn't ever leave in the first place. Plus a lot of people upset at Tori for not letting Frisk leave are also upset at her for letting other kids leave and die. Like I really feel she's this... protective, lonely, grieving person who is put in a situation where she can't really win? Like you've got this kid who wants to leave and you're feeling like a literal monster for forbidding them from leaving? And really, Toriel crumbles pretty quickly like. She just can't do it, even for a day (we assume this is the timeline, but either way she doesn't last long against a kid who wants to leave), she can't keep this kid who doesn't want to be here there. And so she says... She sets a rule, ok, if you can prove your strong. If you can prove, that me letting you out this door won't kill you, you can go. If I am not signing your death warrant, you are free to leave. She's saying that with the history of all these dead children. And the thing is, I can't imagine a solution where she can solve this smoothly, especially not one that it feels like a person can pull off easily.

Honestly before knowing about the dog thing I just assumed it was avoidance. Not malicious avoidance. Just. The sort of avoidance of... if I don't answer the calls, they won't die. Time won't progress. Things won't go bad. I think with anxiety there's that kind of wishful thinking. And of course, even then she asks her friend Sans to look out for the child.

The thing with Toriel and Chara's relationship is, we really never get a perception of how much she knows. I feel a lot of things re: that situation get laid on Toriel's shoulders despite her being one half of a pair of parents. That being said, I don't think it was necessarily either parents fault? Chara and Asriel.... definitely seemed to have a high level of codependency early on. I get the sense they had a lot of secrets between them. Asgore didn't know. Toriel didn't know. No one knew about their plan aside from those two. Chara and Asriel had an insular relationship... which might be because Chara didn't trust adults very much. Like you can do all you can to prevent a kid from hurting themselves, but if they don't want to talk they won't talk. I think she's operating from this... issue of... knowing something is wrong, maybe, but having no context and just slowly working at it. I don't get the sense that Chara was there for very long.

I also think people underestimate how hard it is just to... leave someone when we talk about Asgore + Toriel. That's a whole other thing.

Spoiler: Deltarune

Deltarune... is a whole other thing. In that we have a lot more mysteries here. Like I could be totally off, and maybe next game will reveal I am and that there's neglect going on. That's fair.

I... consider Toriel's concern here pretty normal? Considering Kris looks like... that and doesn't seem to have many friends and seems to get up to odd shit a lot. Kris seems depressed and like they're failing to thrive.

I'm not sure if the trophies are a manifestation of favoritism inasmuch as they're just a manifestation of one sibling's ability to thrive and the other's failure to. We'll see on that one, because I Really Don't Know. Toriel seems to be there for Kris, walking them to school, and talking to them about their brother, but not like... the way they talk about Asriel, she seems to be doing it to cheer Kris up? Like, everyone in town seems clued in to Kris and Asriel being Close. And now they're alone. But hey Kris, your brother will visit! She also shares even more stories from when Kris was a kid, so I mean... she definitely seems to value Kris as her kid even if she's missing the house being fuller. I mean, she also seems like... genuinely excited for Kris to make a friend. Like, she checks in in a manner I would consider normal considering Kris looks so. Ill. and seems relaxed and happy to hear that -that's- what you've been up to. Go out and explore more!

The room... might be Kris. They seem weird and distant and upset. I really doubt Toriel would go out of her way to unplug the tv, heck she feels like the kind of person who'd try to decorate someone's room but then be told off by growing children and be like... oh. Sorry. I didn't realize I was overstepping. I mean... when I was that age my parents stayed out of my room, really. I'd also assume things like the green crayon are like... because the green crayon was the favourite colour, it got used up? Sort of thing.

Idk, Toriel has flaws in how she handles her deal with Asgore, because that's rough on kids who are caught between it but yeah. She IS also overprotective, or I guess sometimes underprotective, but the issue is... I feel like she's in a situation where no matter what she does it'll be viewed negatively because the kids in question are very unwell and come prepackaged with trauma and there's not much to do to like. Automatically Fix that but be there, and respond to them, and just keep going every day as positively as possibly. Like, Kris seems highschool age to me in Deltarune, where missing for a few hours after school wasn't unusual? I used to do a lot of things after highschool. Maybe unusual for Kris, but. We don't have a lot of context.

Spoiler: Personal details

Like. When I was depressed in highschool, my mother wasn't a great mother. But I don't blame her for not like. Commenting on my dingy mattress because when people touched things in my room I lost my shit and used to keep my door locked, and she doesn't respect that boundary and still does go in my room on occasion, but like. I really think Kris is also someone who would value personal space. That's just a headcanon though, but it's slightly supported by their reaction to Asgore I guess.

 

Spoiler: undertale/delta rune

that's an interesting perspective
i guess for me i just see a third option of her in undertale which is...go with frisk. she demonstrates that she is more powerful when asgore when she knocks him out of the way like a fluffy sack of potatoes, and as a result it's much easier for me to read her avoidance and smothering behavior negatively. i don't think she's irredeemable or anything, I do think she does care, but. i get the impression she wants her child to be a very specific thing and gets aggravated when they are not.

i'm not a fan of asgore in either undertale or delta rune either x3 in undertale you've got the context of "is an actual child murderer" which prevented me from liking him over much even though I understand why he did it.

I like him much better in delta rune - the fact the he reacts like he hasn't seen kris in years, scoops them up and holds and then immediately apologizes because he can't remember if they like hugs like that, shows a lot of consideration.

there's def different ways to read into it, and i'd personally enjoy being wrong, it's just that she hits so many of the alarm bells and red flags, and some things remind me of my own mother that I get a bit leery.

 

with regards to unplugged stuff: i vaguely remember being young and there was all this stuff on "unplug your applicances/computer when it's switched off to save on your power bill!" stuff

also i used to do a lot of drawing, and i liked red...the whole class liked red...we kept running out of red pencils. and then the school would consider buying more but...you can't buy just one colour of pencil, i think? and nobody wanted to have more boxes of like, mostly the colours that weren't used as much.

also i'd lose the red a lot. like "where is it!! where is the 3cm of red pencil!!" it had rolled under the bed


EDIT: fixed a typo

 

@Kathy Jones

Spoiler

That's valid! I was actually worried about saying all that because I think feeling that way is totally valid. I just got to thinking why I see Toriel a certain way when I saw your comment, but I also understand feeling the way you do. And anyway, in Deltarune especially there's a lot of wiggle room for interp.

 

Spoiler

I still can't believe how Toby Fox used Alphys' opinions of the two Mew Mew Kissy Cutie franchise things to comment on the differences between Undertale and Deltarune

Undertale Alphys: likes MMKC1 for its important themes of friendship and how controlling people into what you think is best for them isn't necessarily the best, sometimes happy mediocrity and letting them go to live their own life and experiencing small happinesses like ice cream together is best. Dislikes MMKC2 for being needlessly dark and edgy and completely erasing the meaningful character arcs.

Deltarune Alphys: likes MMKC2 for its realistic-feeling and (I forget why else, I didn't screencap it). Dislikes MMKC1 for being naive and saccharine and shallow in comparison.

 

Spoiler: Some slightly half-assed Toriel thoughts

As someone who grew up as weird depressed alien child with a mom didn't really know how to handle them but tried her best, I see a lot of that in Toriel. Yeah, she did things that in retrospect weren't helpful and seem kind of bizarre or even mean, but at the same time might have worked with a more 'normal' kid (and in some cases did end up working with a more 'normal' kid - my younger sister). But she did do her best to adjust to my needs insofar as she understood them, at times doing things for me that other people thought were unhelpful or wrong but were actually just what I needed.

Like, with Toriel in Deltarune - is holding Kris's hand to lead them into school because she's controlling... or because Kris needs that reassurance to be able to make it the rest of the way by themself? Does Kris look unkempt because Toriel isn't taking care of them... or is she wary of pushing them about their appearance, because it's already a sensitive subject?

Parenting is hard, especially when you don't have a background that prepared you to raise a weird depressed alien child, or anyone on hand who can give you good advice as to how to raise one.

That's just my take on it, based on my experiences. Time will tell how close or far I am from the mark.

 

Toriel seems to be different for everyone, we each see our mom's flaws in her apparently. For me, I see her as overbearing and overprotecting out of genuine love that's sometimes extremely misguided.

 

I see the mother I wish I had, honestly.

 

@Aondeug I feel the same way about Toriel, honestly. I've felt that exact same thought when thinking of her before.

(Either way, she inspires some very personal feelings)

 

she's an absolutely excellent character in that regard "_"

 

Spoiler: delta rune playthrough

Playing the thing. Room reminds me of the room my brother and I had, honestly. Where the one kid was the golden kid and the other was a messy fuck with no prizes. My brother was horribly depressed as a child. Partly because he was the one on the receiving end of a lot of the abuse and also he got bullied a lot at school. WHEEEEEE. Thankfully we are now free of school. In the forest. Just beat whatever the fuck the checkerboard thing is. So far I am killing or sparing enemies depending upon my mechanical whimsy.

Ralsei needs a hug. And also to be punched.

Susie just needs to be punched. A lot. you're lucky i'm quiet bitch.