If avpd kind of fits but not quite, maybe social anxiety disorder instead? I never can remember what the difference was, but a lot of this sounds v familiar and I have SAD, so there's a lot of overlap. witnessed, though. good job posting even though your brain is prolly yelling at you
so if i, hypothetically, related painfully to just about each and every one of these(up to and including the reaction you had to jesse's post i s2g, i believe my literal conclusion for that post, once i pushed past the instinctive 'lmao no one would write about me' was 'ok so i guess im The Chosen One or some bs like that' because that was the only reason i could think of for someone as uninteresting as me to have a lead role. yay!), would that, mean anything, ,, urghh i'm gonna stick around in this thread for a while bc a. i can't bring myself to make an own one it's Not Happening and while this still feels intrusive it feels less intrusive, and b. if someone concludes that you probably are, then that raises the chance that i probably am, and if someone concludes that you're not then probably i'm not, and c. lost and confused together is better than lost and confused alone (feel free to tell me to butt out) our answers to things are p much the same or at least v similar up until the last section, so im just gonna, write up the last section, to get my own head straight Spoiler Section VI Common symptoms and behaviors associated: I feel like group settings are easier than one-on-one conversations because there is less attention focused on me. yes, which is something i've reacted to and been confused about in the past because 'more people, please' should not be the solution to social anxiety, which is what i've been thinking i had, I have no idea how to take compliments. i'm learning. sort of. (it's more i don't know how to deal with them, i can accept them and say 'thank you' just fine in most situations but i don't know how to accept them as something that relates to me) In fact, compliments can often make me nervous because then I feel like I have to meet an expectation, and I am confident I will fail. YES. for several years being told i'd done well or was pretty or clever made me feel straight up nauseous - though mostly that felt like... partways 'they have an image of me that does not match up with the real thing and I am certain to disappoint them' and very much like 'They think I'm someone I'm not; I have tricked them; I'm an awful human being to have fooled someone else into thinking I'm worth being around' this is mainly better now, or I've learnt to disregard it when it happens. It used to be the instant reaction and I legit would just about never feel good about compliments, I'd just start panicking if someone said smth nice about me, and now it isn't like that anymore. (someone says nice things about me now and I react super strongly in the other direction, the 'this person likes me! maybe that means i'm not awful??' can buoy me for days if i work it right. also in the moment it's literally a euphoric feeling if someone i like or look up to says nice things to me, any nice thing, i will feel like i can fly. i'm not sure that's a proportionate reaction to compliments. I often avoid opportunities which could be good for me because I am afraid of failing. yes I have phone anxiety. lol yes (but that's mainly, i'm constantly scared of misunderstanding&being misunderstood and i can't always hear what ppl say on the phone so it makes things worse) Sometimes I can take a long time to reply to people because I’m afraid my response will be criticized. yes, both in occasions like chatting w people (particularly on facebook) where i'll sometimes go so long without replying that the not-replying is worse than anything i could've said and still not reply, there's a fear-freezing-up thing happening when i try, and in occasions like here on this forum where i'll occasionally manage to start a conversation or jump into a conversation, say 1 thing, and then... not dare to reply to anything anyone says about it, or to me. because somehow that's worse? there's a, permanence to that? i dunno it's weird and i can't explain it well I avoid initiating contact with people as much as I can. yes I hate being the one to make plans. I’d much rather someone else make plans, and I’ll just go along with them. (Or maybe I’ll avoid them too.) yes I tend to delete posts because I become afraid of what other people will think of them. i don't very often do this, but i do often have the impulse to just delete myself off the internet entirely, like w this forum i've fought down that instinct so many times everytime i say something it's like 'haha okay that's too far we've done enough delete the account start over or leave' (and that one's weird bc it really does feel like it would be okay to start over like the terrifying thing is becoming something recogniseable, as long as i'm a ghost or a lurker it's okay, but people beginning to associate me with something anything is both the best and worst case scenario lmao) I hate being angry or sad or expressing any form of negative emotion in front of other people. i don't know, i don't think so? i think i'm pretty used to being vulnerable in various ways around people. I’m so afraid of asking for help, even when I desperately need it. yes. if i ask for help i'm a bother. being a bother is The Worst Possible Thing. I find I am often unable to go to work/school or to find a job/apply for school because I worry a job/school would be too critical of me. yyyyyyes. I am bad at picking up on cues like flirting or other forms of positive expression. yes, and no, and yes like on one hand yes and i can't really believe people genuinely like me on the other i have mistaken not-flirting for flirting before and am absolutely incapable of telling the difference between normal friendliness and flirting I really look up to some of the people in my life because I truly feel they are better people than I am. y e s. yes this, a thousand times this, ugh. i idealize so many of my friends and i know that's not healthy and i'm working on it, i am. I fantasize about idealized relationships with other people. no i don't think so not really i'm not really sure what that would entail but i can't imagine myself in any relationship so like *shrugs* 12-13? / 15 anecdata: once a close friend told me a joke i'd made had crossed a line. she did this super gently, making it very clear that the joke was not unforgivable, i hadn't hurt her (just made her a bit uncomfortable), and that she wasn't angry, but that it'd be good if i didn't do it again. my response to this was to send her a thumbs up emoji (bc i was so distressed i couldn't even words & was literally shaking), and then spend the rest of the day mentally curled up into a ball agonizing about how i'd hurt her and was a terrible friend and a terrible person and how surely, she hated me forever now, god, i'm such trash, and so on for hours. good times
is it possible for someone to be avoidant while also exploding sometimes? like they've been aware of their tendencies being unhealthy so they try to force themselves to be more assertive and go too far? obviously it's a thing that's possible to happen but would it count as avpd still? Spoiler: checklist Section I Must check TWO or more of the following: I have identity issues, which include low self-esteem. I find myself unappealing or inferior to others. if low self-esteem itself counts as an identity issue then def yes I set unrealistic standards for myself, and I am reluctant to pursue any of my goals or take personal risks or engage in new activities which involve interpersonal contact. this is why i don't art anymore, it's never good enough, and i was convinced i'd never manage to get a job even if i could do one until someone basically walked me through it I am empathic, although I focus more on negative feelings which are directed at me. I am sensitive to criticism and rejection. definitely I am reluctant to get too close to people and maintain a distance to keep people from knowing me too well. this is one of the things i'm hypercorrecting, and that doesn't always work, so like half the time i'm super private and half the time i'm forcing myself to lay everything out there. or at least here i do that 2 required, either 3 or 4 checked Section II Must check TWO or more of the following: I have cognition problems and difficulty perceiving myself, other people, and events. i don't understand this one either I have affectivity problems and difficulty controlling the range and intensity of my emotional responses. yes I have problems with interpersonal functioning and being aware of my own actions and feelings. yes I have difficulty controlling my impulses. hypercorrecting this, and then hypercorrecting for the correction, like 'no i must not do the thing' and then 'you know what why should i clamp down on myself like this DO ALL THE THINGS' and then 'i regret everything' 2 required, 2-4 checked Section III Must check THREE or more of the following, one of which MUST be the first one listed: I experience intense feelings of nervousness, tenseness, and panic in reaction to social situations. I worry about the negative effects experiences, and I am afraid of embarrassing myself. a l w a y s I detach myself from social contacts and don’t initiate anything in order to avoid embarrassing myself or ruining the relationship. i cannot contact people first, i just can't, i can correct for this when it's really super important but otherwise nah I find myself unable to fully enjoy myself or properly engage in experiences which should make me happy. It’s hard for me to take interest in things. sometimes I avoid intimacy and getting too close to people (romantic relationships, friendships etc.). i sit around longing to be better friends with someone and never actually talking to them. romance i'm just not interested in so that side of things probably doesn't count but still yes 3 required, 3-4 checked Section IV Must check FOUR or more of the following: I avoid activities with involve significant interpersonal contact because of my fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection. yes except when i hypercorrect and rush into the thing and then feel super embarrassed afterward whether anyone actually disapproved of me or not I’m pretty unwilling to get involved with people unless I’m certain they’re going to like me. yes I hold back in personal relationships because I’m afraid of being shamed or ridiculed. yes, and the closer i am with someone the less i can correct for this bc i have more to lose I’m preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations. i seriously lose sleep over this I feel uncomfortable in new interpersonal situations because of my feelings of inadequacy. yes I see myself as socially inept, unappealing, or inferior to others. probably more than being pro-dx autistic accounts for i think I’m reluctant to take personal risks or engage in new activities because I may embarrass myself. yes 4 required, 5-7 checked Section V Must check ALL of the following: My symptoms impair my personality and social functioning yes My symptoms are consistent across a broad range of personal and social situations. they don't appear in the same ways but they are consistently there My symptoms have lasted a while and started in early adulthood or earlier. can't remember not being like this My symptoms are not caused by medication, drug use, or another medical condition. no drugs, only some anxiety meds, the anxiety is probably not helping of course but idk if that can be everything? 4 required, 3-4 checked Section VI Common symptoms and behaviors associated: I feel like group settings are easier than one-on-one conversations because there is less attention focused on me. yes and also i can point to things other people said and just go "yeah that" I have no idea how to take compliments. getting better, without even hypercorrecting In fact, compliments can often make me nervous because then I feel like I have to meet an expectation, and I am confident I will fail. ...except that this happens too I often avoid opportunities which could be good for me because I am afraid of failing. yes I have phone anxiety. phones are the work of the devil okay Sometimes I can take a long time to reply to people because I’m afraid my response will be criticized. yes, and then i'm afraid how long it took me to respond will be criticized, so i just drop it and hope they forget i exist, then i feel bad if they forget i exist bc i am the worst I avoid initiating contact with people as much as I can. yes I hate being the one to make plans. I’d much rather someone else make plans, and I’ll just go along with them. (Or maybe I’ll avoid them too.) yes I tend to delete posts because I become afraid of what other people will think of them. getting better about this but i have done it I hate being angry or sad or expressing any form of negative emotion in front of other people. huge huge overcorrecting thing here, and i need to build up my justifications so much in order to express a thing that then it's really hard to stop I’m so afraid of asking for help, even when I desperately need it. yes, but getting better in some areas I find I am often unable to go to work/school or to find a job/apply for school because I worry a job/school would be too critical of me. hahaha yes I am bad at picking up on cues like flirting or other forms of positive expression. but if i miss a cue how do i know it was there to be missed? I really look up to some of the people in my life because I truly feel they are better people than I am. not really I fantasize about idealized relationships with other people. yes none required
pinging @chaoticArbiter because I know they have AVPD and have been extremely helpful and willing to talk about their experiences with me. perhaps they'll find this thread interesting as well. if anyone wants to read my own inept flailing in attempting to distinguish if I have AVPD, as well as cA's input on said flailings, they're at this thread. I also have access to a copy of the DSM-5 and thus the Official Definitions of things, so I figured I'd copy some information that might be helpful to you folks into this thread. Spoiler: differential diagnosis of personality disorders and social anxiety disorder: Given its frequent onset in childhood and its persistence into and through adulthood, social anxiety disorder may resemble a personality disorder. The most apparent overlap is with avoidant personality disorder. Individuals with avoidant person ality disorder have a broader avoidance pattern than those with social anxiety disorder. Nonetheless, social anxiety disorder is typically more comorbid with avoidant personality disorder than with other personality disorders, and avoidant personality disorder is more comorbid with social anxiety disorder than with other anxiety disorders. Spoiler: diagnostic criteria of social anxiety disorder: Marked fear or anxiety about one or more social situations in which the individual is exposed to possible scrutiny by others. Examples include social interactions (e.g., hav ing a conversation, meeting unfamiliar people), being observed (e.g., eating or drink ing), and performing in front of others (e.g., giving a speech). The individual fears that he or she will act in a way or show anxiety symptoms that will be negatively evaluated (i.e., will be humiliating or embarrassing: will lead to rejection or offend others). The social situations almost always provoke fear or anxiety. The social situations are avoided or endured with intense fear or anxiety. The fear or anxiety is out of proportion to the actual threat posed by the social situation and to the sociocultural context. The fear, anxiety, or avoidance is persistent, typically lasting for 6 months or more. The fear, anxiety, or avoidance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. Spoiler: diagnostic criteria of AVPD: A pervasive pattern of social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy, and hypersensitivity to neg ative evaluation, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following: Avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection. Is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked. Shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed. Is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations. Is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy. Views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others. Is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing. Spoiler: diagnostic features: The essential feature of avoidant personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy, and hypersensitivity to negative evaluation that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts. Individuals with avoidant personality disorder avoid work activities that involve significant interpersonal contact because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection (Criterion 1). Offers of job promotions may be declined because the new responsibilities might result in criticism from coworkers. These individuals avoid making new friends unless they are certain they will be liked and accepted without criticism (Criterion 2). Until they pass stringent tests proving the contrary, other people are assumed to be critical and disapproving. Individuals with this disorder will not join in group activities unless there are repeated and generous offers of support and nurturance. Interpersonal intimacy is often difficult for these individuals, although they are able to establish intimate relationships when there is assurance of uncritical acceptance. They may act with restraint, have difficulty talking about themselves, and withhold intimate feelings for fear of being exposed, ridiculed, or shamed (Criterion 3). Because individuals with this disorder are preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations, they may have a markedly low threshold for detecting such reactions (Criterion 4). If someone is even slightly disapproving or critical, they may feel extremely hurt. They tend to be shy, quiet, inhibited, and "invisible" because of the fear that any attention would be degrading or rejecting. They expect that no matter what they say, others will see it as "wrong," and so they may say nothing at all. They react strongly to subtle cues that are suggestive of mockery or derision. Despite their longing to be active participants in social life, they fear placing their welfare in the hands of others. Individuals with avoidant personality disorder are inhibited in new interpersonal situations because they feel inadequate and have low self-esteem (Criterion 5). Doubts concerning social competence and personal appeal become especially manifest in settings involving interactions with strangers. These individuals believe themselves to be socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others (Criterion 6). They are unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because these may prove embarrassing (Criterion 7). They are prone to exaggerate the potential dangers of ordinary situations, and a restricted lifestyle may result from their need for certainty and security. Someone with this disorder may cancel a job interview for fear of being embarrassed by not dressing appropriately. Marginal somatic symptoms or other problems may become the reason for avoiding new activities. Spoiler: associated features supporting diagnosis: Individuals with avoidant personality disorder often vigilantly appraise the movements and expressions of those with whom they come into contact. Their fearful and tense demeanor may elicit ridicule and derision from others, which in turn confirms their self doubts. These individuals are very anxious about the possibility that they will react to criticism with blushing or crying. They are described by others as being "shy," "timid," "lonely," and "isolated." The major problems associated with this disorder occur in social and occupational functioning. The low self-esteem and hypersensitivity to rejection are associated with restricted interpersonal contacts. These individuals may become relatively isolated and usually do not have a large social support network that can help them weather crises. They desire affection and acceptance and may fantasize about idealized relationships with others. The avoidant behaviors can also adversely affect occupational functioning because these individuals try to avoid the types of social situations that may be important for meeting the basic demands of the job or for advancement. Other disorders that are commonly diagnosed with avoidant personality disorder include depressive, bipolar, and anxiety disorders, especially social anxiety disorder (social phobia). Avoidant personality disorder is often diagnosed with dependent personality disorder, because individuals with avoidant personality disorder become very attached to and dependent on those few other people with whom they are friends. Avoidant personality disorder also tends to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and with the Cluster A personality disorders (i.e., paranoid, schizoid, or schizotypal personality disorders). Spoiler: development and course: The avoidant behavior often starts in infancy or childhood with shyness, isolation, and fear of strangers and new situations. Although shyness in childhood is a common precursor of avoidant personality disorder, in most individuals it tends to gradually dissipate as they get older. In contrast, individuals who go on to develop avoidant personality disorder may become increasingly shy and avoidant during adolescence and early adulthood, when social relationships with new people become especially important. There is some evidence that in adults, avoidant personality disorder tends to become less evident or to remit with age. This diagnosis should be used with great caution in children and adolescents, for whom shy and avoidant behavior may be developmentally appropriate. Spoiler: differential diagnosis: Anxiety disorders. There appears to be a great deal of overlap between avoidant personality disorder and social anxiety disorder (social phobia), so much so that they may be alternative conceptualizations of the same or similar conditions. Avoidance also characterizes both avoidant personality disorder and agoraphobia, and they often co-occur. Other personality disorders and personality traits. Other personality disorders may be confused with avoidant personality disorder because they have certain features in common. It is, therefore, important to distinguish among these disorders based on differences in their characteristic features. However, if an individual has personality features that meet criteria for one or more personality disorders in addition to avoidant personality disorder, all can be diagnosed. Both avoidant personality disorder and dependent personality disorder are characterized by feelings of inadequacy, hypersensitivity to criticism, and a need for reassurance. Although the primary focus of concern in avoidant personality disorder is avoidance of humiliation and rejection, in dependent personality disorder the focus is on being taken care of. However, avoidant personality disorder and dependent personality disorder are particularly likely to co-occur. Like avoidant personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder and schizotypal personality disorder are characterized by social isolation. However, individuals with avoidant personality disorder want to have relationships with others and feel their loneliness deeply, whereas those with schizoid or schizotypal personality disorder may be content with and even prefer their social isolation. Paranoid personality disorder and avoidant personality disorder are both characterized by a reluctance to confide in others. However, in avoidant personality disorder, this reluctance is attributable more to a fear of being embarrassed or being found inadequate than to a fear of others' malicious intent. Many individuals display avoidant personality traits. Only when these traits are in lexible, maladaptive, and persisting and cause significant functional impairment or subjective distress do they constitute avoidant personality disorder. Personality change due to another medical condition. Avoidant personality disorder must be distinguished from personality change due to another medical condition, in which the traits that emerge are attributable to the effects of another medical condition on the central nervous system. Substance use disorders. Avoidant personality disorder must also be distinguished from symptoms that may develop in association with persistent substance use. hope some of that was helpful!
*rolls in* I keep forgetting to respond to this!!! From talking to you, you defs seem like you have AvPD-ish to me but it can be tough to differntiate I find that social anxiety is more of a "I might do something embarrassing/stupid/etc. and people will laugh at me or mock me so I will avoid people" AvPD is "I am inherently awful and worthless and people are going to know and see me and reject me and so I will avoid people"
sorry to resurrect the thread i just need to ask something real quick i'm seeing a psychologist about this/about general anxiety bs right now, first session today, and she is not regarding avpd as an option, because if i had avpd i would not suspect i had avpd. like, the not-knowing, not-suspecting, is an integral part of what makes it a personality disorder. is that legit, is she right to disregard it completely from day 1? ((clarification: i'm fully willing and prepared to accept i'm wrong about this, or that my anxiety over things isn't severe enough for avpd or that it just doesn't quite match up right, but something about the whole... 'if youre able to logically recognise that your view of the world is skewed then there isn't anything wrong with you' thing just strikes me as.... idk condescending i guess? so, yeah - people with avpd, did you suspect before getting your diagnosis, if you have one? either that you had avpd specifically or just that something wasn't quite right.))
nope, she's wrong! there are specific disorders (not all of them personality ones) where it's often the case that people will refuse to believe they have the thing, like people who are manic refusing to believe that it's disadvantageous or people with schizophrenia not realizing anything's wrong or people with NPD thinking that the problem's not with them but with others. the fancy term for this is anosognosia, by the way! but it's not actually symptomatic of anything except schizophrenia and to a lesser extent schizoaffective disorder, and expecting a uniform lack of insight in people with personality disorders is dumb.
