Seeing as I'm airing all my grievances on this site, apparently, I thought I'd share another thing that's had me severely worked up in the past. I've always been terribly confused about alcohol and consent. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this. Whilst this hasn't been too much of a issue for me this far (due to my complete romantic ineptness), I have kissed people who were drunk before. On both occasions, I was also drunk, and they specifically invited me to kiss them. Most people I know have done similar things. I see a lot of posts going around saying that people who are drunk cannot consent. This of course makes me extremely worried, given what I've just said. It means that I have unknowingly and along with most people I know, including my family and friends, committed sexual assault. That can't be right, surely - the thought terrifies me, I would feel horrible if that turned out to be the case. Also seeing as I was also drunk at the time, doesn't that conversely mean that I was uh, assaulted myself? That doesn't seem right, I felt perfectly able to consent at the time and still feel that that was the case now. When I've been really freaked out about this in the past, I've sent questions to blogs that discuss rape culture. The vast majority of them have said that you're fine as long as the person in question isn't too drunk to consent. The question is, what counts as "too drunk"? When they're literally unable to understand what's happening (of course in that case I would never do this!) , or is there some nebulous point beforehand? Also, I've seen other sources that claim that any amount of alcohol precludes consent of any type! This has made me sort of anxious to interact with drunk people whatsoever to be honest. There's also the whole issue that the places where you're expected to flirt are environments containing alcohol - pubs and clubs. Indeed, I am only confident enough too flirt when I'm already a little buzzed myself. If anybody who has drunk anything at all is entirely out of bounds, I'd essentially be stuck alone without the ability to approach anyone romantically (I don't tend to go to many social events where there isn't drinking these days, as my friends favour those types of environments). What's more, thinking about consent in general worries me. If alcohol precludes consent, then what about other situations? What about people who are "under the influence" of things like poor mental health, or even who are just tired? Isn't their judgement also impaired? It makes me feel really anxious about flirting with anyone, at all, ever, to be honest. I don't know whether this is just neurosis or whether I've done something really, really bad. And that scares me. Thanks. I hope I didn't come off too badly.
First off, you have NOT, from the information provided, done anything really really bad. As someone who made this call a few times as the sober bystander in college (frequent DD) and was involved in a lot of discussion about consent at the time, my view is that both level of impairment and level of enthusiasm matter. If one or both people involved can't talk straight or walk straight, I considered them too impaired to make these decisions that night. If they were just buzzed and both enthusiastic, green light. If someone was buzzed and persuasion or pressure was being applied... I then consider that a situation of impaired consent. "Too drunk for anything" varies a bit from person to person--I watched for signs of actual impairment, physical or mental, in my friends to judge that. Generally, 'buzzed' isn't there yet. But enthusiasm is not as ambiguous. If you aren't doing any work to persuade the other person (in the sense of talking them into an activity--feel free to always be your attractive and interesting self!) and they are enthusiastically and assertively Into The Thing, you are not morally bankrupt for taking positive responses at face value, or for offering pressure-free flirtation to interested fellow drinkers.
Thank you, although if anyone else has any input then I'd appreciate it. That draws a fairly indistinct line, which places all the burden on my own judgement, which of course isn't always as accurate as it might be when I myself have been drinking. It feels incredibly dangerous to rely on that and that alone to make a decision that, if made wrongly, would make mean that I have done something abhorrent. "Buzzed" is a word that could use some better definition as well. Not to mention that you can't always rely on appearances... in one of these situations, the person I was flirting with seemed perfectly coherent and happy, at least to me. We kissed once, but then about half an hour later, she was sick. Which of course implies that she was a lot more inebriated than I might have judged. And sort of makes me feel kind of shit for kissing her, or at least, letting her kiss me. Hhhh I want to be able to go out and have a good time with people but I don't want to accidentally do a bad thing because I don't understand the criteria involved! It's so disarming to me, the concept that somebody can actively be saying to you "yes, I want to do the thing!" but at the same that cannot always be trusted, and that if you do take that at face value then sometimes you might have committed assault! It really freaks me out, and makes me worry about all the interactions I have with people where alcohol is involved. I just want to have a good time and to feel sure I'm not hurting anyone. Am I a bad person for wanting that?
If it helps, people can be sick after drinking without actually being super drunk? /personal experience Also, people should be perfectly aware that they might make silly decisions while drunk. If it's literally just a smooch and nothing more, I wouldn't think that would merit anything other than a 'ugh' in the morning from the other person, really. I really wouldn't say that one kiss, on someone displaying all the signs of being capable of consenting and clearly doing so, makes you in any way abhorrent. The trouble with this shit is there IS no nice clear line. Shit's complicated. And your scrupulosity is coming back to bite you in the ass again and insisting there HAS to be and CLEARLY everyone else knows it when fuck no, of course they don't.
Nnnot necessarily? If her stomach was too empty, or if it's sensitive, it could have rebelled considerably before her decision making capabilities were impacted. (Source: this is pretty much My Life.) She's the one who can judge that best, and you should ask rather than guess if you need to know. Scrupulosity is telling you the responsibility is ALL YOURS, but it's not. Remind yourself that other people have autonomy and are responsible for their own decisions. You aren't suddenly and magically 100% responsible for them because they've had X amount of alcohol, any more than they're responsible for you. Realistically, the best you can do is make a framework of behavior and do your best to stay within that, but also realize that other people may still make bad decisions involving you, because they chose to. "I'm going to kiss this dude even though I know I shouldn't" is a thing people do with or without alcohol, as is "I kissed this dude and now I'm sorry I did." Sometimes the best you can do if they come to you with that is say, "I'm sorry you had a bad time, we won't be doing that again," and move on. I also want to say but can't figure out how to tie it in to the previous paragraph that your comfort is important, too - if you feel uncomfortable kissing someone even if they seem really into it, it's okay to stop and check in with them, or stop entirely.
I don't know guys. I'm still not sure. Usually I'm always enthusiastic myself, but it's impossible to know what another person is thinking or feeling except through what they communicate, and how am I supposed to know to what degree that is accurate when alcohol is involved? Even if people only say "urgh" the next morning... Well, assault is assault, no matter how "bad" it is! And saying "people are expected to do stupid things when they're drunk anyway" sounds too much like victim blaming based on some of what I've read. I am usually the one initially seeking intimate contact, that or both of us are. So I do feel like the responsibility is mine. Not to mention that being male, like... I'm the one who people would usually place the burden on. Also, what about all those sources that say that any drinking at all means that you can't consent? I'm honestly so worried about this.
Nah son, subtle difference: i said most people expect themselves to do stupid things. You can only go off what information you have at the time. You're not psychic. Even if you're the one hitting on someone initially, if they respond positively at the time and they're not super obviously falling-down drunk, that's all you have to work with. You can't see the future and guess that maybe in the morning they'll be like 'oh man i wish I hadn't snogged that guy last night'. Because maybe they won't! Maybe they'll be like 'damn, I wish I'd been able to get that guy I snogged's number, I liked him'. You're so worried because you have a mental illness which is blowing things massively out of proportion and causing you to blame yourself for things you haven't even done and don't seem likely to do. Oh, and as for the 'any amount of alcohol invalidates consent' brigade- they're making things black and white again, as tumblr loves to do. It is not NEARLY that black and white. @seebs, you had a good conversation about this a while back with someone on your blog, didn't you?
Frankly? They're idiots. Maybe their rules work for them, idk, but they are not a natural law, and it's wrong of them to portray their personal rules as The Way Things Are. I'm saying this as someone who does not drink much, has a low alcohol tolerance, and no tolerance for dumb drunk people shenanigans. I can still make decent decisions regarding my own person when I'm tipsy enough to be motor impaired, and I resent the hell out the tumblr kids who want to tell me that no, I can't. They don't know me - and you can't know all the possible limits for all other people. Just for yourself. Again, you can make your own rules regarding this. Feel uncomfortable smooching someone who is showing more than minor signs of tipsiness? Then don't smooch them! Tell them "Hey I'm really interested in you, let's see each other outside of [that venue]." You don't have to navigate the murky waters of 'how drunk are they', you can decide on the level of tipsiness you're comfortable with having smooches with, and cut things off there.
I agree with Mercury. If you feel uncomfortable kissing someone who looks too inebriated, then you can tell them that you'd like to continue this a bit later. You don't have to make these judgement calls if this makes you uncomfortable. To me personally the idea that any amount of alcohol makes you unable to consent seems stupid. If other people find that a good rule, good for them. I myself do drink socially, don't have too much tolerance (I get sort of extraverted and chatty fast, but then stop drinking) and if I want to initiate something with my significant other (who is always sober) while mildly buzzed, well, I am capable of these decisions. He gets to decide whether he wants to reprociate, he doesn't just have to sit there and meekly yield to Suddenly Determined Inebriated Girlfriend.
I actually have a weird personal history involving alcohol and consent - I had an ex-boyfriend who would never do anything physical with me for the first time unless he was at least partly inebriated, so then he could blame it on impaired judgement (with a side order of "me pressuring him" blame thrown in). He had a LOT of baggage related to purity/virginity, but it was a shitty way to manipulate both himself and me, so I've personally had a lot of really strict rules about consent while drinking. Basically, if you're not sure? I vastly prefer getting really clear consent before anyone starts drinking. There is a certain social contract that if you're drinking at a pub/whatever with the intent to meet & kiss people, you've consented to that kind of thing beforehand. Since that's not really my scene, I just make a big deal with new partners that I prefer to talk things out before we're drunk, but YMMV. Also, remember that at any point, you can say no if you're uncomfortable with the situation.
It's... very hard for me to tell which advice to trust. It's kind of stressful to make a decision on this stuff, when, even if this is not actually life or death, it's certainly a very serious issue in play here.
Well if you're that anxious, I feel like taking Mercury and Silvereye's advice about just not kissing drunk people is the way to go? Can't get it wrong if you don't do that.
I don't know what to tell you, dude. You have a few options: can put in hard boundaries for yourself and negotiate possibly kissing beforehand or ask to meet up with potential partners at a time and place there won't be alcohol, you can wing it like most everyone else does, or you can start looking for a new social scene where alcohol isn't an issue. The magical answer that will make everything crystal clear and easy you seem to want to make your anxiety brain calm down doesn't exist, and we can't give it to you. Until you can break these patterns, you're going to keep chasing your tail about it.
Well, dude, honestly? Your brain is presenting you with a Catch-22 and laughing about it, and you really need help to learn to stop those patterns. Nothing I or anyone else can say will help you if you keep buying into the bullshit your brain is feeding you. I'm really sorry to say that- it doesn't mean I hate you or anything, you're not a bad person, you just need to learn to recognise when your brain is trapping you.
