Regarding Lying

Okay, so this is a favorite topic of mine, and I like the chance to bring more people into it: dishonesty. It's got a weird dual nature, in that it's an extremely-useful skill to have, and nearly everyone practices it at some point or another, but nobody is inclined to admit the positives of lying. And there are good reasons for this. Getting into the habit of lying is an unhealthy life habit, talent at lying is very easy to abuse, and every story of a lie is necessarily a story where the truth came out and everything went to shit. But lies can also be used for good. Lying to stay in the closet can be a matter of personal safety, lies can get you out of dangerous situations, lies can be the only thing that keep you from becoming homeless or losing a friend or preventing something horrible from happening. Hell, a lot of humor depends on saying something untrue. Lies are part of the fabric of life, like it or not.

So: what makes a good lie? What makes a morally-acceptable lie? What makes an effective lie? How do you find yourself using dishonesty? Are there any lies you're grateful about being told, or do you categorically hate being lied to?

Let's talk about lies.

 

this is a really interesting discussion topic from a moral/ethical standpoint i think, lying can be an important aspect of personal safety in many occasions, especially regarding your sexual orientation/gender identity.

I think that a lot of people generally like to take the moral high ground and say lying is a bad thing in general but really there is nothing wrong with lying at all as long as you arent directly hurting other people i reckon. I think that also the generalized internet lying is bad too, just because its annoying and serves no purpose. like, why would you do that? why would you go on the internet and tell lies?

 

ooh i like talking about lying

i am a pretty habitual liar, which i am not proud of, but in general when i lie it's for one of several purposes: smoothing over conflicts, avoiding hurting someone's feelings unnecessarily, and deflecting scrutiny. i lie to avoid, basically! i am avoidant in the extreme. lots of white lies and lots of ADHD-typical 'no-don't-look-everything's-fine' lying. i'll lie to keep someone else's secret, or to avoid getting in trouble, or if i think that a lie would solve a problem. i try to be very careful about my lies, and keep them as consistent as i possibly can, because i am terrified of having my lies revealed. i don't like to hurt people, even accidentally.

on the other hand: i really really do not enjoy being lied to. or, actually, what i hate is being lied to for no reason. i can't tell when i'm being lied to and i always assume honesty on other peoples' parts, so when i realize they were lying it feels like a rug has been pulled out from underneath me. especially when it feels like there was no purpose behind the lie! just... misinformation for the sake of misinformation. i also really really do not like when someone's lie affects the way i behave or what i say. i hate being made to feel wrongfooted or foolish.

elaborate, obviously false stories on The Tumblr always make me really really upset. i have to block the posts. they make me feel almost betrayed for some reason.

 

Oppa homeless style

 

I'm a more-or-less truthful person, because lying takes effort to keep straight, and I kind of assume honesty from the people around me as well.
But I've had my share of lies, usually covering for other people or for my own ass if I forgot my homework.

Rarely lying has the side effect that people are more inclined to believe me because they're not used to me lying, and if I do edit the truth a little bit, they're more inclined to forgive me.
The lies that seem to work best are those that differ from the actual truth only in small, but crucial, details.
(eta: or those where it doesnt matter it's a lie, the story is awesome as it is, and who cares if that didnt happen exactly like that)

Although omission and letting the other parties come to their own (wrong) conclusions is quite nice as well.

 

I can't outright lie, I almost feel like my brain is incapable of doing it (I can count on one hand the number of times I've genuinely done it, and I've felt awful afterwards)... but I sometimes still want to. (for purposes of keeping secrets or something)
For me, the game is finding ways to omit and bend the truth as much as possible without it snapping.
False stories on Tumblr are awful, and just being lied to in general make me feel awful because I tend to assume honesty from everyone... even if they've lied to me before, and it sucks when that trust is betrayed.

As for how to lie effectively, it's a weird mixture of convincing vagueness (not too vague), and having the fake facts ready in your head in case you need to elaborate.

 

My definition of a good lie, personally, includes the caveat 'nobody can ever find out'. Trust is a valuable commodity, and once you lose it, it's never quite the same! So most of my lies end up being minor. There's also the minor social maneuver that I occasionally tell the types of lies that A: people are definitely going to catch onto, but B: they won't get offended over or lose any trust for me. This can be humorous lies that seem to be out of embarrassment, or lies regarding things they have no personal investment in. If they think of me as a 'bad liar', it's easy to slip subtle lies past when I need to. This is also a form of trust, the trust that they are too quick to have one pulled over on them.

It's hard to talk about lies without discussing trust. I often try to think of trust less in the specific form of 'expecting someone to be honest' and more in the general sense of 'feeling like you can predict someone's behavior'. If you know someone has a cup of coffee every morning, you trust them to have that coffee. Lies that fit in with the things people already trust, the model they have in their heads that predicts the way the world works, are often more effective.

 

Much like a Vulcan, I am an excellent liar, and it's pretty much exclusively because of Trauma Junk. I had to be really good at a) keeping the family story straight for strangers, and b) really good at navigating my home life so that a violence didn't happen. I got really good at denying the truth of things in general and also about myself. Notably, though, I'm horrible at elaborate deceptions, because my memory is also incredibly shitty and I can't keep it straight - my lies almost always have some truth in them, they've just been altered to help smooth things over so I won't get screamed at. I lie by omission as well, which still counts in my eyes.

I hate that aspect of myself, though. I feel like it's one of the most significant wounds child abuse dealt to me, interpersonally, and I am very ashamed of it. I'm kind of scared to even admit it! But yeah, lying to protect myself is a skill I absolutely possess, Thanks Mum And Dad.

 

1) simplicity
2) reducing potential harm done to others
3) ? define effective
4) diverting nasty social conflict
5) I hate being lied to. The truth can be scary but I've been gaslighted and I *need* to know reality.

 

Lying makes me feel awful, and I'm always really afraid that any lie I tell will force me to tell more lies and it'll be worse.

Most of my lies are panicked lies when I want to deny having done something embarrassing, and consequently they're always pretty transparent.
The rest are bendings of the truth when my mom asks if I've done something I had been procrastinating on and I've decided to let the avoidance win that round and just not do it (though usually I just tell her because see above paragraph)

Fourthed(?) on the assuming honesty from everyone. Learning that something's a lie makes me feel like I'm too naive to survive in this cynical world or something.

This. My theory on how to tell a convincing lie is that you should skip explaining some step that makes what you're saying make sense, like you had a theory of mind lapse and forgot the other person doesn't know everything you know.

 

Favorite Lie I Ever Told:
More like deceitful long-term improv routine because Bored and Bitter Retail Drone but w/e.

I was working as a grocery clerk. Psyche classes and observation had made me realize that while some uniforms made you Noticeable (See: Police, Military, Medical) others made you completely faceless and invisible (See: Grocery Clerk) I decided to do a social experiment and see just HOW invisible. I have a knack for accents. I know all of my regulars at least by face and voice if not name, let's see if they know me and notice a difference.

So in the middle of my shift, between two customers, I became a British Exchange Student.

And I learned that people are incredibly unobservant, when not one noticed a change (even switching back and forth between customers standing in line together!)

And the best way to tell a lie is to have people tell it for you.

"Where in England are you from?"
"You know, no one's ever been able to guess? Give it a shot."
"You sound north-ish. Manchester?"
You got it, buddy.

"What brought you 'across the pond'? Your boyfriend?"
Yep.

"What's your favorite football team?" (Says the guy in the Manchester United shirt)
Gee, I wonder.

And so on.

I was only going to do it for a couple days. Maybe a week. But then people started recognizing me out of work as "That British Chick". Football guy kept trying to get me to go to rallies because he wanted to party with a Real Brit (ha). A classmate informed me that she'd met my identical twin at the store, "But she's from the UK!" soooo I just ran with it. For more than a month.

And then I switched back (mostly because I had gotten so used to speaking in an accent and I talked so much more at work than out that the accent was coming out when I was inebriated) and became invisible again. Completely unnoticeable Retail Drone.

Except for literally one person. Football Guy came into my line and stopped dead when I said hello.

"Is something wrong?" I asked.
"Yeah, why are you forcing an American accent?"

Oops.

 

Same hat!

Strangely enough, I am... not really that bothered by being lied to, unless it's about something super important and someone I'm close with. I've been friends with people who lie compulsively before and it doesn't get to me at all. I just take everything they say with a grain of salt. Maybe it's just because I almost never expect anyone to tell the truth? Like, they could be, but they could also be lying, and that's how I approach just about any interaction. Just about anything anyone I don't know well tells me is a pretty story made up for my benefit unless proven otherwise. My family practically makes a sport out of lying to each other, so maybe I'm just used to it. *shrug*

I dunno. I used to lie a lot when I was younger, for trauma reasons as well as others, but now I just don't see as much of the appeal. I lied a lot more when my life was less what I wanted it to be. My memory is normally crap about big picture stuff, but I retain tiny details well, which lends itself well to actually lying. Mostly these days I lie about why I was late to work or can't take that extra shift or whether I did the class reading or whether I'm going to try and make it to that party.

What makes a good lie? Simplicity, as much of the truth as possible, and little detail. People get suspicious if you report every tiny thing that happened, unless they ask for it. A morally-acceptable lie is any lie that doesn't harm anyone. There are several lies I'm glad that I've been told - I was more upset when I found out the truth and I wish I didn't know. One of my sisters apparently thinks my fiance is a rage monster who's driving me away from her. I don't really care that she thinks that, because it doesn't have an effect on my life - they clash as people sometimes so they don't spend time together - but it upset me to find out. I was more upset that she made it something I could stumble across. I do get upset when people lie to me about stuff I've experienced - I have had people say "no, that didn't happen" when I and others can confirm it did - but that stems more from a lot of gaslighting that happened to me. I think of that as different from lies in general.

 

another thread about lying, if you're interested

 

I can't lie on purpose. If I'm lying, it means that some part of my brain decided "nope, we can't tell the truth here" and made something up before I could get a word in.

 

@sirsparklepants same hat!!

It occurred to me that I totally got too wrapped up in answering the initial premise of the thread and didn't like... answer your questions, sorry!! So:

What makes a good lie? Functionally, a lie you can remember, because if people figure out you are lying it is Bad for a lot of reasons. Morally, a lie which doesn't hurt people.
What makes a morally-acceptable lie? A lie which doesn't hurt people!! Which, like, I'd define as - if someone's going to be basing a part of themselves on this lie you've told, that's Bad, don't do that. Or if someone is going to disclose things to you because they think you're in the same boat but you're really not, that's Also Bad, also don't do that. Just like... try to be mindful about what your lies are going to do to other people.
What makes an effective lie? A lie which is at least half truth, because then you have truth anchors to point back at and go 'yeah this is totally like that'.
How do you find yourself using dishonesty? Reflexively to defend myself. Like - there are parts of myself I just Do Not Get Into here, because it's not safe for me to do so, which I don't think is all that morally wrong because it's just a me thing? I omit a lot of details with my family, and lie to my parents when they ask what's going on in my life, though I lie with mild and inoffensive substitutes like 'nothing much has been going on' or 'things have been pretty good'. I maintain a lie about my childhood that I shoplifted because of peer pressure because my parents would have done me bodily harm if they knew I just wanted things even though I was too poor to buy them. And when I have to leave the keyboard for embarrassing reasons I just say I'm getting up to get some water, which is the truth enough anyway. I mean, there are times when I've panicked or otherwise used lies in other ways

Spoiler: spoilering reference to physical abuse

(like I once said my father had hurt me more than he actually did because I was jealous of all the attention my mother was getting for having her ribs broken by him),

but these days it's mostly just - there's a thing about me I need to protect, okay, here's a lie to do that. I try not to do it as much these days but it's kind of a hard habit to break.
Are there any lies you're grateful about being told, or do you categorically hate being lied to? I'm grateful when people tell me lies to protect themselves while still being mindful of my dumb butt. Like, when I'm getting into Deep Trauma Discussions with someone and they go 'yeah I didn't get that but that sucks' even though they did but they didn't want to get into that? I am legitimately happy they drew that line even if they did it by technically lying a bit. Lying to me is also a way of expressing boundaries when it's about the person themselves, I guess, and I want people to have boundaries. Like - don't get me wrong, I don't like being fooled with big stories about things which didn't really happen, I still feel hurt when someone's lie infringes on my space, but when people are lying or omitting information about themselves to defend themselves I'm pretty sympathetic about that because, you know, same hat.

 

I hate when people lie to me about little things, like having read a book or not. I can understand about big things. But when I'm lied to about little things and i don't notice and then i find out like a year or two later - i get really really (probably irrationally) upset. you didn't need to lie to me! it didn't matter!

 

A friend lied to me once about something to not hurt my feelings, and ever since then I never knew whether or not I could trust him with telling the truth about harsh stuff :/

 

if you tell untruths but don't know that they are not true, does it count as lying? if my memory fails (as it often does) and i insist upon something that is incorrect is it lying if i believe it to be true?

trust is important and it takes time to build and can be wiped put in an instant, so i do not lie intentionally unless it is for safety reasons. my memory is bad though so somethimes i make mistakes and remember things incorrectly. i do find that social interactions are often full of small lies. one of my closest friends exaggerates things constantly, and after a few years i've learned to go with the flow, and i can now interpret the truth from the things she says but it's weird. it's a weird kind of social posturing that i really don't like, as it's usually used to make the speaker feel superior. i don't like that.

also i often do.. not lying exactly, but i am almost always careful and intentional re: the words i use and their various implications and connotations and associations. and swapping out a word or two can keep the sentence still factually correct, but at the same time give it wildly different meaning. so when i have the spoons to do so, i use these things to my advantage. it is pretty draining though.

eta: i don't think wothholding information is lying and i have had people manipulate personal and private details out of me that i didn't want to share, on the basis that withholding information is lying. and because i didnt disclose specifics of my mental illness, it meant i was lying to them. that was a bad experience.

also it makes me uncomfortable and angry when people view truth telling as one of the Most Important Things. i don't think intentinal deciet is a good habit, but one of my friends lied to her mother about having internet friends (she said she didn't) and then her mother found out that she did, and got angry. her mother didn't take issue with that she had internet friends, she took issue with the lying. but because of that i haven't been able to talk to my friend in seven months. and i miss her a lot. and remembering that situation makes me feel really angry and helpless and sad.

 

For the record I define lie as knowingly telling or promoting a falsehood or a misleading representation of facts with intent to deceive. The intent to deceive is the important part.

What makes a good lie?
Depends on the definition of good? I mean, I don't see how this would be different than morally acceptable or effective. XD

What makes a morally-acceptable lie?
Generally, one that doesn't hurt people, or prevents more people from being hurt than it harms. Also, lies made under duress or out of habit can be understandable.

What makes an effective lie?
An effective lie is a lie people won't question and won't repeat. You might think an effective lie would be the most believable, but those can invite questions, which means more details. Sometimes you can't avoid questions, so your lie has to have easy and believable answers. To avoid it being repeated, either make the other person disinclined to repeat it, or make it boring enough they'll quickly forget it. That depends on the person.

How do you find yourself using dishonesty?
I am also in the boat of "learned to lie due to weird upbringing", with the flavor of "mom always had me lie to her to get people not to think badly of her, it became second nature to deflect anything bad about myself as well". It's a habit to lie, about why I'm late or why I didn't do something or whatever. It happens even when the real reasons why are perfectly understandable; it's the fact that they're the truth and if people know the truth about me then they'll hate me. This is entirely in my head, which I am aware of, and I work against it. I've worked hard to be able to tell the truth and I like being able to do it. Sometimes I end up telling an innocuous lie and I later say, "No, I lied about x earlier, the truth is y." Depending on who I am talking to, I will either explain the thing about having to lie for my family, or I'll say "I don't know why I did that" if I think it would be TMI to go into family issues. :P

Oh, also I lie to fool/prank people sometimes, but nothing serious. I do my best to only do this to people who would think it was a good thing to do (eg if you're surprising someone with a gift) or who would think it was funny.

Are there any lies you're grateful about being told, or do you categorically hate being lied to?
I think I'm okay with the Usual Lies people tell kids (Santa, the Stork, etc.) Except the ones about Christopher Columbus, because fuck that guy. About being lied to as an adult... If someone is lying, and I know they're lying and I choose to say something, and they deny it? That pisses me off. You got called on it, just fess up. (Ftr I wouldn't say anything if I thought it would endanger the person, but I might wait to ask later in private.) I am pretty forgiving about people lying to me if they come clean or if it wasn't to take advantage, although I don't think I've ever had anyone lie about anything big? Not that I currently know about, at least. XD Anyway, I have sympathy for feeling the need to lie.