Alix is out, for now

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by seebs, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    The thing that would ameliorate the communication issues would be for Alix to stop editing history to make herself feel better.
     
    • Agree x 1
  2. Knives

    Knives Active Member

    I mean, probably not, honestly? That's far from the only barrier to productive communication that exists between her and Kintsugi.
     
  3. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    again, kintsugi is not a person. the individuals alix threatened, abused, and bullied are people, a fact you feel free to forget.

    you keep scolding me for not being nicer to the person who made multiple death threats against my family.

    that’s why i’m mean to you.

    there’s no excuse. you can’t say that’s too long to read.

    but ok, i won’t quote you or @ you as long as you don’t talk about me. that includes passive aggressive jabs that don’t name me but are obviously aimed at me, btw. and it excludes my vent thread; if you post there i’ll quote it if i want.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    "Kintsugi" is still not an entity. There is no way to communicate with "a forum". You must communicate with individual people.

    And that's the barrier that's actually stopped all attempts at productive discussion lately, and caused all the people who had been productively discussing to give up. It's no longer possible for communication to meaningfully occur, because even if I put in the hours of effort and searching and quoting it takes to provide Alix with clear proof that things really did happen the way I said they did, a week later she'll have edited the thing back to a completely different narrative in which she's the victim of sinister conspiracies. And then, because that's a thing she "gets to be mad about", she'll pick some random unrelated person she's jealous of and suicide-bait them or harass them. And that's not her fault, because she only did it because people were mean to her, or because she was trying to prove a point, or she was "joking".

    She doesn't even bother to apologize anymore, because she's not sorry. She says she's not sorry. That she's proud of it. That she did things specifically with considered intent to be abusive. And then a day later she is convinced that she was the victim here, that other people did it, that she had no say in it.

    She'll say "oh, I wasn't really going to kill them, I just wanted to make that threat so [X] would leave my Discord", and then she says that I'm keeping people from joining her Discord and talking to her. No, she is. She's driving them away by being abusive to them because she wants them to leave, then she forgets this and blames shadowy third parties.

    And maybe she really can't retain information. But the thing that everyone else with shitty memory does is say "okay, my memory is complete shit, so I don't know things unless I look them up". And the thing she does is say "okay, my memory is complete shit, but clearly, this large and complicated narrative I remember is 100% accurate and a justification for hurting people".
     
    • Agree x 1
  5. Knives

    Knives Active Member

    I guess I should probably make it clear instead of ghosting you that I'm effectively unable to reply to this post :?

    I don't have knowledge of the events that you're speaking of, so I'd either have to respond assuming that everything you're saying is correct, or that everything you're saying is incorrect, and neither viewpoint is likely to do anything save for toss fuel onto the fire.
     
  6. No?No.

    No?No. incognito

    I'm fairly sure that the referenced incidents have been documented EXTENSIVELY on this forum, and that they have been linked in Alix' vent and a bunch of other places and if you would find it in you to read them, you would have knowledge of the events.
     
    • Agree x 1
  7. hydromatic

    hydromatic New Member

    It is not hard to find proof of the numerous times alix has suicide baited people she was as much as vaguely pissy at. If you are that committed to white knighting someone, do your homework
     
    • Agree x 1
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Some of these events are actually pretty inaccessible; say, conversations I had with Alix on Discord, or something. So it is in fact very hard to confirm/deny some of these. Like, Alix saying directly that she was doing a thing because it was abusive, and she was going to be an abusive asshole because That Gets Results, was in DMs, so Knives wouldn't have seen it.
     
    • Informative x 2
  9. Acey

    Acey same old sad soliloquy

    Seconding Jesse—I think this was a very long time coming. I’m just glad it has.

    I’d also like to note that at least two close friends of mine (not using their names to protect their anonymity) have experienced off-site harassment from Alix very recently—as in “within the past two weeks.” I don’t think it’s just Kintsugi being bad for her (although I’m sure that’s very much a factor). That being said, anything that reduces her avenues of harassment and abuse is a good thing, and this site is now one less avenue for that.

    Basically, I’m just very relieved that she’s gone.
     
    • Agree x 5
    • Witnessed x 4
  10. Knives

    Knives Active Member

    I really love how I'm consistently held to a far higher standard of knowledge than literally everyone else, and then people bitch at me when I disengage from a conversation because I don't have the information to engage with it properly.

    There is literally no move that people will accept lol
     
  11. TheMockingCrows

    TheMockingCrows Resident POTSie potato.

    you're not held to a higher standard of knowledge, you're being held accountable for the fact you white knight with a quarter at best of the facts and refuse to access the resources that would shed even a bit more light on the situation when they're offered. you're being held accountable for the fact you're choosing to remain ignorant of a lot of things but still going off at the mouth as if you have way more knowledge than you do and it's frustrating as hell because then it turns into this really immature "Nuh UH" kind of situation over and over again.
     
    • Agree x 10
    • Winner x 1
  12. Knives

    Knives Active Member

    I'm not held to a higher standard of knowledge, am I? Then why does nobody ever catch a tenth of the backlash that I do for asserting things as facts that are completely wrong?

    I mean, I know exactly why, but I'm curious as to how you rationalize it.
     
  13. Ana Nimus

    Ana Nimus Well-Known Member

    Knives, people have been trying to accommodate Alix for three years. Every time she either tries to get around it or decides that its actually unfair to her. IF she gets allowed back in and if there's to be some new accommodation for her, its needs to be something SHE discusses and agrees to. why are you even over here trying to decide what will and wont work for her? did she even agree to that idea you proposed? what right do you even have to negotiate accommodations for her? do the people you're trying to negotiate with, even want to negotiate accommodations anymore?

    Also, if this forum is really a bad environment for her and really hurting her as she herself claims why would you even want her back in that bad environment?

    You're being held to the exact standard as everyone else. It's just that everyone else in this conversation had BEEN here for these events and/or directly abused by Alix. If you're not going to read any of the history, you can do her victims the courtesy of listening and believing them when they tell you about stuff she's done. That's How to Talk About Abuse 101 level there: believe the victims

    Have you ever admitted that you were wrong about the facts? Ever said "Oh, I was wrong about this situation. I apologize"? Or do you continue to argue with people who were THERE while you weren't? Do you make any effort to get the facts of a situation first, or do you come in swinging with anger and accusations?

    Right now, you're trying advocate for you friend to return to a toxic cycle that's been going on for years. You're pushing for the people Alix has abused to have to put up with MORE of her abuse. Do you see why that's not going over well?

    You don't have to continue this argument. You don't have to defend your friend. It doesn't make you a bad person or a bad friend to walk away from this fight. its not "losing", its just moving on from a bad situation.
     
    • Agree x 16
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Who else has asserted things as facts that are completely wrong? I think we had that one time that I misunderstood something someone said, and Beldaran repeated what I'd told her, and when I found out I'd misunderstood it, I posted about it. Did you have a second example?
     
  15. Knives

    Knives Active Member

    Probably in the past? I distinctly remember her very recently-ish thanking the mods for temp-banning her in the situations where that's happened thus far, and from my memory the only other time she's gotten upset about having a restriction placed on her account was when she got a bunch of restrictions placed on her account apparently out of nowhere and with no explanation; when she was actually *given* one she seemed fine with them and IIRC hasn't contested it since? If I'm forgetting anything since I got involved in this let me know I guess.

    In order:

    I agree, I am not trying to decide anything for her or on her behalf, no I have not discussed this with her, I never claimed to be "negotiating" accommodations for her or on her behalf, and I assume so given that they've responded unprompted to a post in which they were never directly mentioned in or otherwise obligated to respond.

    Idk I just feel like I should lay out my thought process so I don't have to keep explaining that no I'm not doing all of these things that people keep accusing me of:

    1 - Sees Alix has been banned
    2 - Primary cause of ban cited was severe communication issues
    3 - Considers possible causes and solutions for the aforementioned issues
    4 - Makes suggestion as to how communication issues could be ameliorated

    I do and have done all of these things at varying ratios over time, I guess seebs is a decent person to ask for confirmation of this since individually he's probably had the most involvement with me wrt this issue.


    Considering my track record with getting complete and correct information from people on and off Kintsugi in regards to this, "listening and believing" someone because I feel like they have some quality that makes their information more trustworthy has probably been my greatest, consistently made mistake (not even in regards to _this_ honestly), and I don't think it could be fixed by changing who it is I'm blindly believing. But this (the post you're quoting here) is kind of neither here nor there and is a minor derail that I asked to be moved from this thread, so I won't go on about it anymore than that.

    I don't recall advocating for Alix to return in this thread. I'm honestly kind of on the fence about whether or not it's better for Alix to have a toxic community or no major social outlets at all. Kind of picking between the best of a bad lot, really. I've done both and they're both kind of terrible, and my situation isn't even as bad as Alix's.

    Also; Alix's victims have like, half the forum advocating for them, I don't really think there's any point in me throwing my hat into that ring when it's practically a combination Jeweler Millinery at this point.
     
  16. Re Allyssa

    Re Allyssa Sylph of Heart

    I am amused by this.

    That kind of thinking is exactly what caused a lot of the backlash against Seebs when this all started. Seebs also didn't think they needed to say that what Alix did was awful as that was pretty obvious. But like Spock said, a lot of people felt ignored and pushed under the rug anyway.

    This isn't really directed at Knives specifically, just something I wanted to point out.
     
    • Agree x 10
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Yeah. One of the problems I have repeatedly had is that I think it's fairly obvious and straightforward that anyone can decide not to talk to someone else, for any reason, and that's pretty much up to them. There's no obligation to try to interact with people who are being abusive towards you. And yet, a lot of people sort of infer that if I say I think someone's actually making progress, that means there's an obligation to put up with their bullshit. No, there really, really, isn't.

    Alix made a ton of progress. She really did develop that control she was struggling for so much. Unfortunately, this actually made things worse, rather than better, because fundamentally she believes, deep down in her heart, that she should be punishing bad people, and that anyone setting a boundary that would affect her is by definition bad, because it's upsetting to her to be told "no". She doesn't really believe it intellectually, but it's in the "search your heart, you know it to be true" bin; everything plays out as though that is the One Revealed Truth.

    None of this is unchangeable. But it's not a thing you can change by anything other than actually coming to believe that it is genuinely okay for other people not to like you if you're an asshole to them. As long as she is upset by people disliking her, and translates that distress into "therefore this was unfair" and editing events to make it all about something other than what she did that they're reacting to, it's not gonna change. Which sucks.

    Meanwhile, Alix keeps saying things about how people said this is the "unchangeable core" of her being. Why? Because if they were saying that she'd feel justified in being mad at them, therefore she imagines that they said it. Or meant it. Or something. Doesn't matter whether any specific person said it or thinks it; if she believes they did, she gets to be mad at them and feel justified and angry rather than sad about something she broke.
     
  18. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    There was, like, quite a couple of forum-wide dumpster fires in relation to the victims of Alix's abuse absolutely feeling like they weren't being supported at all in the situation and like we were being told to shut up about it because it might make Alix angry and open us up to even further abuses. I am still in contact with numerous people who absolutely refuse to look twice at this site anymore because of Alix's abuses and the following response by Seebs.

    Like, sure, things have changed now, and that's great and all, but Seebs and "half the forum" being on our side now doesn't really erase the months of hurt caused by fighting to be listened to and feeling like we were being dismissed at every turn. And sure, you're just, like, one person with no authority on this forum, but your talking points are extremely reminiscent of that time and it's extremely frustrating to say the least, especially when you refuse to even learn your fucking history.
     
    • Agree x 3
    • Witnessed x 1
  19. Knives

    Knives Active Member

    This is kind of callous, but I'm considering adding "When people who I have never met or spoken to in my life say something about 'the history'" instead of just seebs to my theoretical Kintsugi-based drinking game.
     
  20. TheMockingCrows

    TheMockingCrows Resident POTSie potato.

    for fucks sake
     
    • Agree x 17
    • Winner x 1
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