Anti-Vaxxers!

Discussion in 'General Advice' started by Aviari, Jun 27, 2015.

  1. pixels

    pixels hiatus / only back to vent

    in doing your research you've probably come across this thing called herd immunity. the problem is that vaccinations only work if everyone does them. if there are some people who opt out, it runs the chance of a lot more people getting sick, because all of a sudden the entire herd is not immune from a thing.

    you absolutely have a say in your own health. you absolutely have a say in whether or not a child should be vaccinated to protect the immunity of your community.
     
    • Like x 3
  2. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    There are some places in the US where the vaccination rates have dropped to as low as 80%. Which doesn't sound that low, but you need a minimum vaccination rate of 94% to maintain herd immunity. So there are now places in the US where the community is no longer protected by herd immunity. THAT IS TERRIFYING.
     
    • Like x 2
  3. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

  4. dorkfang

    dorkfang not here

    A couple years ago, in my last year of high school, an "autism mom" (her words) came to speak at a psych club meeting. I zoned out as soon as she said "I firmly believe that vaccines are what caused my child's autism". :|
     
    • Like x 4
  5. Petra

    Petra space case

    Autism-fearing anti-vaxxers are literally saying they'd rather see their child dead than like me, so I feel like I have a reasonable level of rage towards them. Furthermore, because of how herd immunity works, they're also saying they'd rather see other people's children dead than have a kid like me, so...
     
    • Like x 9
  6. liminal

    liminal I'm gonna make it through this year if it kills me

    EXACTLY

    what also really fucks me up is when people say things like "my daughter was a bright and beautiful little girl but then she got her vaccinations and developed autism".

    Sooooo... she's no longer "bright and beautiful"? When you tell her that she's smart, that she's beautiful, that you're proud of her, is that all a lie? Are you just saying those words to be nice while in reality you desperately wish that she was someone "better" than who she is? It touches a lot of my issues because my parents tell me that I am smart and pretty and funny and stuff, but they also tell me that they are terrible parents because they weren't strict enough, or didn't push hard enough, and I can't help but feel like even if they do love me, they also hate who I am and wish I was a different person.
     
    • Like x 5
  7. Petra

    Petra space case

    I feel like anti-vaxxers don't actually understand how herd immunity works. The only reason one child out of 100 going unvaccinated isn't a huge danger is because the child still has an appropriate level of herd immunity, and is thus probably safe. Once you lose herd immunity, you're placing your child in exponentially more danger by not vaccinating. And, I mean, that one-child-in-100 still isn't perfectly safe, but it's also a danger level I'm okay with. But once there's no more societal pressure to vaccinate, all of that safety is lost. You're not only endangering other children whose parents have decided not to vaccinate, you're potentially endangering every infant under the age of safe vaccination, and children who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons like unfortunate allergies to compounds in vaccinations. It's literally not a matter of personal parenting choice, it's... a really solid example of a social contract, imo.
     
    • Like x 4
  8. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    I can post full transcripts of the whole shitshow, but unfortunately it drifted away from science-backed debate into hyperbolic screeching as soon as my ~Naturalist Mommy~ aunt-in-law got involved. They also never said why they fear vaccines, or what it causes (probably because I opened the argument with "Here's 23 different sources saying 'Vaccines Don't Cause Autism, You Ignorant Fuckwits, Fucking Fight Me'")

    @Petra No, they don't get how herd immunity or even vaccines work. Said Aunt wants to expose her child to diseases Naturally so she develops ~Natural Immunity~. She had no comment when I asked if she wanted to let her child play with a rat infested with smallpox fleas, since that's how they did it in the Good Ol' (Medieval) Days. They also didn't respond to:

    "So, you want to expose children to infectious diseases that could kill them (measles, mumps, polio, smallpox...) and hope they develop immunity?
    Gee, if only there were a safe, stable way to expose the human body to a small, inert sample of an infectious disease in a safe, stable environment with no risk of the virus/bacterium's contagious element in order to strengthen their immune system! Oh, wait, like a VACCINE?"​

    What's more, I handed them resources to properly argue their standpoints, and openly admitted when my sources indicated that say, the Gardasil vaccine wasn't well studied enough before it was put into mainstream use, may actually be causing problems and deserves thorough research. They didn't even notice. They skipped right over evidence that helped them in order to whine about Government Control and Freedom of Choice.
     
    • Like x 4
  9. liminal

    liminal I'm gonna make it through this year if it kills me

    yeah unfortunately that's how it goes with most of them. Their feelings trump things like "actual science" and "proof"
     
  10. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    You mean like, how my "Please provide citation for this magical thing called 'natural immunity'. I'll wait." was met with "I dont need to site a million scientific references to understand basic human biology." (Direct quote, by the way. Spelling errors included, but I never pointed them out because that's petty.)

    (First thing, I had 25 sources over the course of two days, secondly, are you sure you want to go to bat with your "understanding" of biology? *Will Smith gesture at shiny $30,000 Biology Degree* Are you really, really sure?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
    • Like x 2
  11. liminal

    liminal I'm gonna make it through this year if it kills me

    lmao I am a biology major right now and it's hilarious(ly infuriating) when people think I know less than a picture floating around facebook. Or whatever pseudoscience is currently popular

    *Samuel L Jackson voice* Biology motherfucker, do you know it?!
     
    • Like x 5
  12. Izevel

    Izevel capuchin hacker fucker

    That side of the issue didn't occur to me before - 'I'd rather have a dead child than one like you' is bad enough, but 'I'd rather other people's kids die than turn out like you' is just... vile. Of course, these people don't tend to understand herd immunity, so fingers crossed that's not what they're actually thinking, but either way it's gross and awful. Super gross and super awful.

    I read your comment before I looked to the left to see who wrote it, which means I saw your avatar right at the end of this post, and it was a perfect reaction image. Thought you'd like to know.

    I love this, and want to embroider it onto my psychopunk battle jacket ASAP.

    Fuckin' love it.

    My mother did actually have 'chicken pox parties' when we were kids - I got it when I was a baby, but if I hadn't, she'd have deliberately infected me later on. She did it with my brother. But a) chicken pox is not measles, and b) at the time, I believe that there was actually a significant concern that chicken pox vaccines would need boosting every ten years, and she figured that a short period of itching at a young age was better than hoping booster shots would be available and affordable for the rest of my life. Since, y'know, the older you are when you get chicken pox the more dangerous it is. At least, that's my understanding; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you guys.

    She definitely would never have done the same with more dangerous diseases, though. We got all our other shots at the correct age, no spacing, no delays. (I didn't actually know, @liminal, that there could be a valid medical reason for spacing out vaccines. That's interesting.)

    My family was skeptical of Gardasil at first, too, because we heard at first that it was linked to an increased risk of developing a really horrible disease that a family friend had recently acquired. We'd been hearing about her horrifically painful and debilitating experience with it, so we waited to opt in to the NHS Gardasil provision until after we found out that it wasn't a statistically significant risk.

    What actual problems are associated with it, out of curiosity?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
    • Like x 1
  13. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    I feel like the lives of people with impaired immunity, the lives of babies, the lives of people with illnesses, and the lives of people who can't be vaccinated due to allergies or illnesses probably trump your ~choice~ to destroy our herd immunity by not vaccinating your child who is capable of being vaccinated.

    Also, not vaccinating your child can result in depressing shit like this child who died from diphtheria in Spain.

    My mum didn't vaccinate me for chicken pox because she thought it was good and normal for kids to get it??? And you're not supposed to get it more than once, so once you get it, you're immune to getting it again, apparently? But I ended up getting it 2-3 times (I can't remember exactly). And like yeah, chicken pox usually doesn't cause lasting damage, but it can.
     
    • Like x 2
  14. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    Links to sudden onset autoimmune problems, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, weird nerve problems in the hands and feet. No proof though, just trends. No one's sure if it's actually caused by the vaccine, undiagnosed genetic problems exacerbated by the vaccine, or psychosomatic. Needs further study. Part of the problem is the reaction study was only continued for 2 weeks after injection. If nothing happened, and almost all adverse reactions consisted of "Eh, my arm kinda hurts and itches, I guess?" within that two week period. Weird shit like POTS didn't show up for months after.

    Used that exact case in my rebuttals. It was ignored.
     
  15. a tiny mushroom

    a tiny mushroom the tiniest

    Do you ever get the feeling that these people don't care about facts and about people who aren't them.
     
    • Like x 5
  16. liminal

    liminal I'm gonna make it through this year if it kills me

    my friend had an adverse reaction and passed out when she got her first Gardasil shot, I just got "ow fuck my arm" when I got my shots. Either way it's not fun... I wonder wtf is even in them though to cause such a reaction.

    The only vaccine I know I'm not going to get is the lyme disease vaccine (if it is ever rereleased) since I learned in microbiology it is actually a vaccine for some kind of activator in the ticks saliva. If you don't have lyme disease than if an infected tick bites you it's ok it won't activate it's more virulent properties. If you already have lyme disease dormant in your system it will activate and you can say hello to chronic nerve problems and arthritis. This is why it was eventually recalled: people were developing arthritis. Though it is still considered controversial that it was recalled and if chronic lyme disease even exists (spoiler alert: it does).

    I don't remember the specifics but that's the gist of what I remember. Living in the northeast lyme disease is ridiculously common here and it's not worth the risk.

    I wonder if something similar is what's going on with the Gardasil vaccine? Though that's just my speculation since I havn't really looked into that.
     
    • Like x 2
  17. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    See, this is the stuff I'm talking about. I swear, a good portion of my frustration is coming from the fact that they could have good arguments but SCIENCE BAD.

    I didn't know that about the lyme disease vaccine, that's a really valid concern! And allergies as a legit reason to space out vaccines (Not "I heard it overloads the wee kiddie's immune system! (Celebrity) said so!" Spoilers: WRONG. Studies show combination vaccines are more time/cost efficient and more effective because the combination works in tandem and your body flips the fuck out making harder, better, faster, stronger antibodies!) And adverse Gardasil reactions.

    No. They just repeat the Freedom Of Choice wanking and "Well if you're vaccinated, and vaccines are soooooooo great, what are you worried about?" It's not ME I'm worried about, fucktruck, it's your kid, because clearly you aren't concerned for their health.
     
    • Like x 3
  18. pixels

    pixels hiatus / only back to vent

    my gardasil shots fucked up my arms all, what, three times i got them? and i mean fucked up, i couldn't move it without significant pain around the injection site for days. which didn't work out well because i always managed to get them right before i had to move things or go back to school or something. so i was pretty much useless because my deltoids noped out.

    i also thought it was a reasonable price to pay for what basically amounts to a cure for cancer, especially given all the other interior baby bit problems that run in my mom's side of the family.

    i wonder if these people have ever had to travel abroad. basically when you go anywhere outside the u.s. you can't get or maintain a passport or get visas and stuff without having certain vaccines up to date. like hepatitis. do they just... not vaxx themselves either? it seems hypocritical to get vaxxed yourself, but then say it's too harmful for your child. you grew up just fucking fine, and your legs are not crippled by polio. congratulations.
     
    • Like x 1
  19. Aviari

    Aviari PartyWolf Is In The House Tonight

    Re: Gardasil
    I didn't have any reaction, or at least the reaction was so mild I don't remember so I'm fairly biased towards the vaccine. I can understand why the potential for POTS or other serious things is cause for concern. We definitely need to research the side effects more. But, seriously, I'd take a sore arm for weeks or months over fucking cancer jegus.

    Re: Parent is vaxxed, won't vaxx kid
    I have honestly heard the statement "I'm vaccinated, and I never caught or was exposed to (infectious diseases A through Q), so I don't think vaccines are necessary!" come out of someone's drooling face hole.
    No shit, Sherlock, did you ever think it was because of the vaccine?

    Re: Travelling abroad.
    I really, really hope they want to go to like, Thailand or something so I can sidle up with, "So. Thailand, huh? Gonna get that Malaria vaccine, or just count on your ~Natural Immunity~?"
    (Because either they'll get vaccinated, and prove me right, or they won't, to spite me, and then also prove me right in a much worse way)
    (Is Thailand still a really bad malaria zone? Friend went there a couple months ago, got vaccinated and still wigged out about potential infection. I sent her a care package full of several varieties of mosquito repellent.)
     
    • Like x 1
  20. Petra

    Petra space case

    Also, even if you're vaccinated, and you're vaccinating your kids, anti-vaxxers mean you have to worry about their kids passing on a disease that's mild in older kids onto your baby that's too young to be vaccinated, and having your baby die or have chronic health problems for life. Their 'personal choices' can kill your kids, I think you have a right to be upset. Even if you don't want to have kids!
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
    • Like x 2
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice