Argument with friend/communication issues

...If this isn't a really dumb question, what are the "correct" social rules?

 

Oh, gawd. Not a dumb question. Actually an excellent question that a lot of us would like the answer to. Problem is they tend to change with every person so it's really hard to answer. Not much help that a lot of neurotypical peeps seem to hold the opinion that if you have to ask, you're already doing it wrong. (Which is not true. Mostly the people with that reaction just don't understand the rule set on any level other than intuitive, and so see the rules discussion themselves as breaking the rules.)

So anyway. If anyone figures out what the right rules are, I would like to know them too.

 

Sorry in advance for making things about me, I have an easier time relating my experiences than stepping away and making things more general. You can ignore this if it doesn't resonate.

Um, I don't know much about either side of this argument. I don't know how to analyze people and behaviors and stuff. But I do know, I spend a lot of thoughtspace trying to use correct words because I feel like I miscommunicate a lot. It's part of the reason I'm looking into being autistic. But, uh, let's see. Okay, so I use a lot of time trying to communicate clearly with carefully selected words. So I feel very irritated when people misquote me? I feel put out, and nervous about what people think I was feeling, if they didn't remember what they were supposed to about what I said. So I can understand why your friend talking about what you think about the game could be unsettling or irritating.

I don't know if one side other the other is wrong or justified or whatever. But your feelings are not invalid.

I only have minor anxiety but when I have a particularly strong anxiety attack it definitely feels like I'm in danger of dying. Even if logically I can understand that like, failing that class won't make the world implode or anything. Disappointing my parents won't make them not care if I drowned. I guess it's just the same hormones for fear-of-death as for fear-of-failure.

Hmm if I was unclear or ineffective in what I said you can ignore this or ask me to clarify? I hope you have a nice day.

 

That...really rings true to me, I think- I spend a lot of time either trying to figure out how to word things best or beating myself up for not wording effectively, so it really gets under my skin when I feel like I've explained myself and the other person doesn't understand, because it's like "that was the best I can word! What words are the right words what you do what?!"
It wasn't ineffective, thank you very much, and I hope you have a nice day too 0u0

 

Quick outsider perspective on this situation:
You have a friend who's a douche > Your friend who's a douche decides to stop being your friend (for douchey reasons) > Now you no longer have a friend who's a douche > NET GAIN

Like (to put my empathy hat back on), losing a friend is the shits, definitely. And I don't know your history with her, or how she's acted in the past, or what your friendship started from. All those things definitely could have contributed to this. But just looking at this chat:

This is not the behavior of someone you want as a friend. This is the behavior of a passive aggressive jerk who's way too hung up on you enjoying the exact same things as her in the exact same way.

Run like hell and don't look back.

 

Alright, so, last night she talked to me again, but the conversation is too long to post here (fun fact, this forum has a character limit of 20000 in posts!) So um, I'll but a pink to a google doc here. You'll probably notice that I don't really know exactly what is going on for more of this conversation. It seemsreally sincere to me but I just don't know right now.

 

Hmmm...what exactly do you mean by different standards? Sorry.

Yeah in between posting it here and today I shared the convo with my moirail and she pointed out the same thing.

Well, I don't really have enough free time to hang out with her and watch her play it (and a game like this I'm kinda only interested in watching people I know play, though I would read up on the plot in a wiki or whatnot.) I don't think it's mentioned but part of the thing is that I am going to college and she isn't, so she has a shit ton more free time then me and I kinda think doesn't quite understand how much of my time is taken up by classes and homework?

yeah, thats how I felt through a lot of it.

Thank you- that's one of the things I was super worried about.

(It doesn't seem that bad...I dunno, maybe I've trained myself not to overreact outwardly as much?)

Practice makes perfect!

Well I mean, if I limited myself to only being friends with people who didn't get offended when I mentioned that I don't like something they like, I would have...basically my moirail, I think. Everyone else seems to get really annoyed if I say that, so I've kinda trained myself not to talk in convos about media because I always offend someone.

 

Ohhhh, I think I get it.
Basically: The whole Fallout fight wasn't actually about whether or not you played and liked the game or not. It was about whatever history you guys have, and whatever issues she has with you. Sometimes when people have a lot of unresolved issues with someone, they'll wind up fixating on a relatively minor issue, and let it become like...a symbol of everything else they're upset about. And when this happens, it can be really hard to convince them that the minor issue isn't actually that big of a problem, because it feels massive to them (since they've attached all this meaning to it). She's pissed because ON TOP OF IT ALL you don't even want to play this game, you're confused because she never actually mentioned "it all". Basically, the reason it feels like you're having two different conversations is because that's exactly what's happening.

It's understandable that people wouldn't want to hear you go on about how much you don't like something, but most people should at least be able to deal with hearing "Eh, not really my bag" and stop bugging you about it. That's a pretty reasonable thing to expect, I think.

Edit:

Missed this the first time around. What exactly do you mean by "very critical"? Nothing you said in the conversation you posted was especially harsh, but if you tended to be more critical than that in other conversations I can see how she might get kinda defensive.

Son of Edit:
Also even putting all this aside, your friend still acts like a passive-aggressive jerk when she's angry, and that's not cool.

 

Ohhhh so she was, like, projecting on this convo? That makes sense as to why it seemed so much more..serious then I thought.

Yeah it's not like someone says "Oh, I really liked the Hobbit movies!" and I launch into an hour long spiel about why they suck, usually what happens is they say that, I either do sharp-breath-intake thing or go "ehhh, not really my thing?," and if they go "but how could you not like them?" or something like that I start talking before realizing it was probably rhetorical.

Edit: Orrr what also happens a lot is that I make some snarky comment about a movie I don't like and hurt people that way.

 

Ahhhhh,

Projecting like a goddamn IMAX.

Oh, that's not that bad at all. As a general rule, people are usually okay with your reasons for not liking something if you phrase it as a matter of personal taste, ("I don't really like fantasy" or "Peter Jackson's directing just doesn't do much for me") rather than as an objective statement ("Fantasy movies are dumb" or "Peter Jackson is a terrible director").

 

Wow... Ugh having a hard time with words. Ask me to clarify if something doesn't make sense. Thoughts on second conversation: I'm reading her as sincere as well, but the real test is how things proceed from here. I say this because it is an abuser thing to apologize, and then do more bad things later. Repeat, repeat, repeat. So, it is a very good idea to establish boundaries and stick with them. If she respects your boundaries(and she may screw up, but if you remind her and she apologizes it's a good thing).

The code word is an excellent idea in my opinion, and I suggest bringing it up with her to continue having a code word(could be the same one) for future conversations. Code words require trust to work, so if one of you starts abusing the code word(using it to specifically shut the other down), it is a very good sign that this relationship is not going to work.

Uh, sorry for sounding so negative! It really does sound like things are going to be okay between you two. She has basically acknowlegded that there are communication problems and that she was bringing bad habits into the relationship. She has expressed that there is work to be done and she is going to try and change things to make it better. She has also sounds like she has a lot of social anxiety to me. It also sounds like you don't understand eachother very well and if you want the relationship to grow, this is where I'd start. I might be off base with this one, but if it sounds right to you, I can tell you a few tips if you'd like.

 

Yeah, I think I called it when I said this was a proxy argument for what was really bothering them :)

It seems that you have some very touchy people around you in terms of likes/dislikes — which strikes me as very immature of them. This is not normal and most people are not like that. It might be that sometimes your responses come across as harsher than you mean them to be, but still …

For instance, I can't stand Twilight and things like that, but my partner enjoys them as light entertainment. This situation doesn't bother either of us. Quite often whether we like something or not is dependent on whether it happens to trip our "can't stand this" buttons, and everyone's set of buttons are different. The things that bug me about Twilight are things that my partner recognizes but aren't in her personal set of "can't stand this".

 

That makes sense, yeah.

Yeah, but these communication issues have been in our relationship for a really long time- like, since we dated, at least.

She probably does- I am 99% sure she has moderate to severe depression (and one of the things she gets annoyed at me about is urging her to try therapy/psychiatry, which she doesn't really trust because she doesn't like her ADHD meds at all)
Could you tell me the tips? 0u0

I probably come across as harsh? Because I can be super bad with tone and such.

 

Alright, so! It sounds to me like you are pretty low on the empathy/emotions scale. She sounds very much like she is very high on the emotions. One of the things she was looking for in the relationship was more emotional support. So, one of the big disconnects I'm seeing is the whole emotions thing.

The first thing you want to do is tell her that you have trouble understanding her, and that you want to learn and you'll need her help. One of the things you can focus on is to identify and learn to deal with her emotions. Like, when she started treating the thing like it was a fight, she was "afraid". If you start looking for patterns, you will be able to tell(and not accurately all the time!) what she is feeling. I would start by asking if this is the thing she is feeling. And sometimes she won't know, but by asking more questions, you will both find out. Then, once you've identified what her emotion is at the time, you can learn what actions to take. For example, if she's afraid of a fight, you can bring up the code word as a promise that you guys can stop the fight at anytime and still be friends. This will take the fear away. Also, she is probably looking for emotional reassurement at times(again, learn to identify first, then work on a way to show it/help). You will need her help with this because you are not psychic. Also, keep in mind that she may not have the energy to explain all the time. This is something else you two can use code words for. You two can wear eachother out by pushing the other(even when you're trying to help) when they have nothing to give.

I'm on mobile atm, so formatting is a bit of a mess and I may come back to fix/add more later.

Edit: Fixed formatting and adding a bit.

On the depression/anxiety/therapy, pushing doesn't actually help. I've personally been told for years that I should go into therapy, but it wasn't until I learned things from Seebs and friends about it that I became comfortable with the idea(still haven't started btw). Like, some of the key things I learned from them is there are bad therapists and bad drugs for you. They have all kinds of tips for how to tell when it's bad, and they are very supportive for helping people stand up for themselves against the system. I mean, it's not perfect, but it helps when it goes right. Having information on how to determine the bad and what to do about is far more helpful than "you should do it because it's good for you". There is also the hurdle of accepting that you have a problem.

If she has social anxiety, be truthful with her always. I don't perceive you as the lying type, but it's important enough that it needs to be said. Also, if you guys use the code words, don't not use them just to be nice or anything. You drawing your lines will assure her that, yes, you have troubles too. It will tell her that you are not lying and secretly hating her, but not saying anything. So do not be afraid to tell her when things are wrong. It is very reassuring in my experience.

 

I... huh. I might be wrong about this, but she's kinda giving me autistic vibes in this second conversation. Misinterprets emotions, considers herself immature and bad with people, very concerned about overstepping social boundaries in retrospect because she's not completely clear on what's appropriate, takes a couple days to process emotions and figure out what she wants to say, very emotionally invested in a specific facet of specific things and upset if they're being Done Wrong...

I might be wrong, but is anyone else getting that vibe? There seems like there's something going on, most people don't slingshot from 'I'm mad at you for being a jerk' to 'I'm bad with people and if our friendship is too bothersome you can end it', I think.

But yeah, I'm seconding that this is a proxy argument and resolution is going to depend on what she does in the future. I do get the vibe that she's being as honest as she can and that she really is trying, but that doesn't necessarily make the friendship healthy for everybody involved. Being friends with an ex can have a lot of old emotional baggage involved that makes things really charged. (And oh, how very much I am speaking from experience, I'm the "Her" in this conversation.)

(And you're not coming across as harsh to me, for what it's worth. It may be coming across as such but I think that's her, not you)

 

To be fair, my partner and most of my friends think its hilarious that i almost never like tv shows or movies. Its not universal to take differing assessments of things badly. Maybe she feels bad that youre doing "important things" like school while shes messing around with games, and projecting that onto you makes her worry that you're judging her when you dont want to do her stuff?